In Which My Uglier Nature Comes Out

[filkertom]

I'm happily childfree, and will stay that way. There are reasons. I've been told I don't much like children. That is true. I revere them in principle; in practice, only a very few have really made me like them.

And it's because of crap like this: A family got kicked off an airplane because their toddler threw a tantrum.

GOOD.

It sounds as if the kid was obnoxious and the parents cluelees. Ohhh, all they needed was a little more time to calm her down. Yeah, that always works. Besides, the plane was already delayed fifteen minutes, I'm sure everyone will wait while you soothe your child. Certainly the connecting flights will. Ohhh, she wanted to sit in Mommy's lap. In violation of FAA safety regulations.

Moron parents. If you can't control your frickin' kids, don't lock the rest of us on a plane with them.

Comments

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

Damn straight. Raising children is neither a right nor an obligation; it's a privilege and a huge self-indulgence. The rest of us are not obligated to suffer because you wanted to have kids, so if you don't know how to control them or aren't willing to, don't bring them to the grocery store/restaurant/theater/public transport/whatever. Not being able to take your kids with you may make your life suck, but taking your unruly kids with you makes our lives suck, and we didn't choose for you to have your kids.

[bathtubnz.livejournal.com]

The article is specifically worded so that there is an implied connection between the kid and the plane running 15 minutes late. They don't mention how long the kid was playing up for at all.
Just saying it's deliberately written a bit unclear.

[aiela.livejournal.com]

As a parent, I know that there are just times a kid is inconsolable, but as an adult, I know there are times the kid is just going to have to be upset. She needed to sit down. She needed to be buckled in, and the plane needed to take off. And at 3, she's been in a car enough that this shouldn't be a new concept. Or at least I'd hope.

And I think AirTran did more than enough to reimburse them. Not only did they get their flight reimbursed, they got additional free tickets.

I fly AirTran when I go down to Atlanta, and they've always seemed very reasonable folks. If the child had been properly prepared for what was going to happen, this may not have been as big of an issue. And if I couldn't calm my kid down, and I got tossed off the plane, I wouldn't be whining about it. I'd know that my kid was being a PITA and causing problems for a lot of other people.

[celticmom1967.livejournal.com]

Huzzah. I agree with what you have said as a parent of an 11-year-old, 2-year-old and 1-year-old all who flew to LA from Columbus OH this summer without incident. I think the family really needed to get a clue and AirTran did do more than enough to make amends. In fact, I really don't think they needed to do more than make sure they had another flight home, giving them extra tickets and reimbursing them almost made what the family did OK.

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

Note how Duh and Moo are saying that the free tickets and reimbursement are too little, too late. I'm MORE likely to fly AirTran, hearing this. I hope there was general applause from the rest of the passengers when these entitlemoos were herded out.

[ericcoleman]

As a parent ... I agree with you completely ...

[morpheus0013.livejournal.com]

Given the fact that "Duh" and "Moo" have already come out in the comments of this post, it already appears that an intelligent discussion on the matter is likely out of the question.

If your child is unwilling to comply with FAA regulations, you cannot fly. Period. And the family will have to deal with that. Please don't equate that with a child having a tantrum in a store or a restaurant. It's really not remotely the same thing.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Not on a safety level, no. But a restaurant has an atmosphere. It's selling a service -- a combination of services, actually, and one of them is (usually) a pleasant place to relax and have a meal. Goodness knows, if I know a particular restaurant is frequented by families with screaming kids, I tend not to go there.

And, for the ultimate expression of Kid In A Store, there's this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3218225083863857496).

[bald-ruminant.livejournal.com]

I had a similar experience on an America West flight out of Phoenix a couple of years ago. Grandmother was traveling with her grandchild and couldn't get the kid to stop screaming or stay in the seat with the buckle on, and after the captain had ordered them off the aircraft we took off about twenty minutes late.

Anyone know if that one made the news? It would have been sometime in October 2004.

[anneb.livejournal.com]

Even if you do like children, enough to have some around you all the time- Darned straight!! You do not do the child any favors when you teach it that a) safety is optional, and b) its tantrum is more important than X, whether it's "the people behind you in line at the grocery," "your father who is nursing a migraine," or "a plane-ful of other passengers." It is possible to hold and console a 3yo that's strapped in next to you. And if you can't when your child is three, go hire a full time nanny for four NOW, because four is going to be living hell.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

You do not do the child any favors when you teach it that a) safety is optional, and b) its tantrum is more important than X,

AMEN!

I was just on two transatlantic flights. One was a misery, because there were two small children just desperate for the attention of their mother, who were doing their damnedest to pretend she wasn't their mother. Lots of constant screaming and kicking and reptition, which ceased the second they got a glance from the grownup... who only rolled her eyes, shook her head, and let the game begin again by going back to her book.

On the way back, there was an even smaller child (undetermined gender), who was a bit squirmy and "Why?"-y... but I noticed that its mother paid it attention, saw to its needs, and when it needed correction to settle down, actually did say things like "You're bothering the other people." And on the whole, it was just fine.

Manners. Can't teach 'em young enough. (Although in the first case, it's obvious you can't teach what you don't have!)

Tom

[illusionmajik.livejournal.com]

Every day your Roxxorz-ness goes up and up.
The kid had EAR SURGERY!
DUH!
It was GOING TO BE PAINFUL.
Dumb partents
THEY SHOULD KNOW

You are awesome

Re: Tom

[jcbemis.livejournal.com]

I saw nothing in any of the articles about ear surgery.

[zellion.livejournal.com]

While I am definitely not childfree in philosophy (I do not have any, but I want a few someday), I am definitely anti-bad parenting. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[tth.livejournal.com]

Normally I can see both sides are all sides of an issue. That being said, I can only see one side here. The parents have no clue how to handle their child. At the age of three, the child should have been exposed to a variety of situations that required the child to follow instructions. The fault here lies with the parents. The child should have been buckled in once the family found their seats.

I believe that the aircrew did everything right and that they air line went out of their way to appease the parents while maintaining civility on a flight that if the family were allowed to stay probably would not have taken off for over an hour. There are specific reasons why everyone needs to be buckled up before take off. The main reason is so the airline is not dragged to court over a lawsuit of some id10t that decided to leave their seat during take off and get hurt.

K

[admnaismith.livejournal.com]

"We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything," Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.

This is the part I don't get. Either the plane patiently waited 15 minutes while the parents failed to get their baby princess ready for takeoff, and the flight crew finally decided enough was enough, or the parents weren't given an opportunity to even try. Hard to see how both could be true. And I need to know which is true in order to decide who's right.

My wee pixie is about to turn two, and it's all too easy to imagine her going into meltdown in a similar situation someday. I'm pretty sure The Redhead and I could calm her down if that happened, but it might take a little time. I've also watched someone else's unruly brat ruin flights, movies, restaurants, etc., for large groups.

Suppose the parents had forcibly strapped the kid into the seat and not let her unbuckle, and she'd shrieked like a banshee the whole flight. Would that have been OK?

[bedlamhouse]

Annoying to the other passengers but not illegal.

I've been on a number of transatlantic flights where a child has shrieked all night. No matter why (and remember that children's ears don't drain as well as adults', so if they are very young it may not be their fault), this was a problem when I had to go straight from the plane to a customer site and work all day.

I am in favor of "children" and "no children" sections, particularly on large planes. And that is the case even having flown with my own stepkids multiple times.

[batyatoon]

I have to agree with morpheus0013 that this is not at all the same thing as a child throwing a tantrum in a restaurant or store. There's a wider range of Proper Behavior in most public places -- and a much wider range of tolerable deviation from said Proper Behavior -- than on an airplane. A child's misbehavior of this sort getting the family thrown out of a restaurant, or off a public bus? That'd be unacceptable.

This, though ... I honestly don't see how the airline could have done anything else. And the reimbursement and free replacement tickets? Above and beyond.

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

Without commenting on the specific case, I disagree on the practical parenting decisions here. It's advisable to respond lightning-fast to inappropriate behavior when one can, and it's much easier to do a quick and gracious exit in restaurants and stores—"no, you don't get the attention you're asking for"—than to do anything like that on a plane. Fortunately, our children were good travelers from the get-go (including one crazy run through DFW when K. was an infant).

[wildcard9.livejournal.com]

They are lucky they got what they did. If it was up to me, the parents would have lost their airline tickets, been banned from going on AirTran (or any airline associated with it) ever again, and received the heaviest FAA-allowed fine possible for delaying the flight. Sorry, but if you can not control your kid, you should not not be on the airplane, period.

Okay, I could see only the kid being banned until they hit a more mature (say grade school) age since it was the kid that caused the problem. But if the parents want to fly before then, the kid does not come with them on the plane.

[batyatoon]

You don't think that's a bit of an overreaction?

[nelladarren.livejournal.com]

So TOTALLY true.

And as someone who really can't abide children I want to say that filkers in general (with VERY few exceptions) seem to make awesome parents. Directly after not having any children around in the first place filker children at conventions are the best behaving kids ever and their parents just know when to keep them out of the concerts and how to keep them amused and quiet - while the average parents in the "real world" seem to be of the opinion that it's o.k. for their offspring to terrorise all of their environment in whatever situation.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

Most fans, in general, seem to make good parents. Its that old "Sense of Wonder" and the fact that we are all mostly big kids anyways.

We also know to get respect, you have to give respect. This doesn't mean treating you child like an adult and expecting them to act like one.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Speaking as the parent of an almost-3-year-old:

They didn't get thrown off the plane because the kid was throwing a tantrum. They got thrown off the plane because her parents wouldn't put her in her damned seat. If my daughter pulls something like that, she doesn't get 15 minutes of holding up the plane -- she gets a calm, "Do I need to pick you up and do it for you?" followed by a count to three, spaced every few seconds to give her opportunity to comply. If she isn't in her seat when I reach three, she gets summarily picked up, dumped in the seat, and strapped in, regardless of whether or not she hits me or screams.

Result: you know, my kid *doesn't* hit me. Or even scream very often. Because she's learned it doesn't change what she has to do, so there's no benefit in it.

[aiela.livejournal.com]

Exactly. If it doesn't work, they won't do it.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

I love the line "We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything" What? They took the kid away from you and didn't let you near them? Why weren't you doing this from the start?? A kid that upset was upset when you go to the airport, suddenly walking onto the plane didn't suddenly send them into conniptions.

Being a parent of a now 10 year old who adores to travel and is very good at it, I can tell you that a great deal of the time the problem is parents who don't prepare their little kids for it. Flying can be a VERY scary thing, heck anyplace you go with a lot of noise and crowds and hectic rushing about will throw a child into panic mode.

When she was still in pod phase, we waited to feed her till the plane started to move. Not only did this keep her mouth busy, but the sucking action kept her ears clear. And there are dozens of other little things you can do along these lines.

When travelling with kids, plan on twice as much time. Move through the airport calmly, make it feel like a big adventure. Coloring books, toys and these days, portable DVD players are very much your friends.

For those of us who chose to have kids, and those who will, its a very important lesson to learn that your child is not your pet, not an accessory and your life is different now. You have to adapt. You are now responsible for your little one, to their comfort and for their actions in public. Kids don't know anything and they don't know better. If you're going to be a parent BE A PARENT and BE RESPONSIBLE. Its no longer just about you!

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

This. Is called. Parenting. And it's one of the primary reasons that Sabrina is one of the kids I like.

[lizard-sf.livejournal.com]

Lizard says: If a child cannot behave on a plane, it should be taken off the plane.

No matter where the plane happens to be at the time...

(At the very least, toss it down with the cats. If my widdle fuzzy snuggle wuggums have to travel in a cage in some dank cargo hold, your whiny brat can do it, too.)

Parents: If you cannot sedate your offspring, don't fly with them. Despite the best efforts of the religious crazies, childbirth is still a choice, and if you make that choice, you accept the many inconveniences that go with it. Comfort yourselves in knowing the rest of us will never know the Special Joys Of Parenting and must suffer through our horrible, empty, barren, meaningless, lives.

Yes, I'm in a snarky mood. I HATE flying, and I have to do it soon for work, and so I am filled with nightmares of being stuck on the Families Of Children With Anger Managment Issues Charter Flight. Given the choice between 'no smoking' and 'no kids', I'll take my chances on the lung cancer express....

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

Next, we have to figure out what to do about those noisy filkers...

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Hey. Some of us drive everywhere. :)

[firedrake-mor.livejournal.com]

Now, I love chilcdren. I deeply regret my ex-wife and I were unable to have them, though it looks like I'm going to inherit some, even if they're already in college. I like being around my Alabama family's large collection of them, ages 9 months to 21 years (yeah, the older ones are (normally) easier to reason with.)

That said, I just had my lunch almost ruined because a mother wouldn't take her screaming toddler outside the restaurant I was dining in. Especially on an airplane, I agree that children need to be old enough to be reasonable, especially if you're going to have them in close proximity to me for several hours when I cannot get away.

Yes, I know some times babies NEED to travel with their parents. But please, do not feel it's your right to let your child scream in my ear all the way from Los Angeles to Houston just because they have an ear infection and cannot equalize. If they're sick they should NOT be on a plane, ferchrissakes.

Sorry, hamadryad, I have to agree with tigertoy to some extent. While the race needs to reproduce. I believe it's an imposition on the rest of "civilized" society for parents to inflict their childrens' violent and vociferous antisocial behavior on the rest of us. On a plane, particularly, where quarters are close and no escape is possible, the four year old kicking the back of my seat from San Francisco to New York is going to have his parents paying for my chiropractic adjustment.

Civilized, well-behaved children are a joy and delight, and deserve the same considerations we extend to civilized, well-behaved adults. Boors and pests and twits are annoying and not to be endured at any age.

[daundelyon.livejournal.com]

If they're sick they should NOT be on a plane, ferchrissakes.
And if it's absolutly and unavoidably necessary, for pity's sake, give them the medication they need to control their discomfort!

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

Five or six years ago my sister was on what she described as a puddle jumper going from someplace in Louisiana to someplace in Georgia. (For a speaking engagement. She files a lot because she speaks at a lot of accounting oriented events and you'd be amazed how many of such there are out there.) There was a four year old traveling with her grandmother. Said child was having a tantrum not unlike the one described in the story. She threw herself on the floor in the aisle and was battling anyone who tried to touch her. In that case, the cabin attendant (there WAS one? Wow!) asked, "Is anyone here from the FAA?" No one answered so the grandmother was asked to keep a hold of the child's hand or foot (whichever she could reach) and the plane took off with the child unsecured on the aisle floor. My sister was horrified and asked why they hadn't just asked grandmother and child to get off the plane. The answer was two parts. One, this was the only flight that week going between point A and point B and it would have been difficult for the traveler to reroute. Two, the airline was convinced the grandmother would sue if they threw them off.

I think the FAA might want to adjust its regulations to specify that a child causing a delay in a commercial flight (come up with a reasonable figure like, say, ten minutes...okay, that doesn't sound reasonable to me but I don't have kids) and then the flight crew is authorized...nay, required...to have them exit the plane and wait for the next available transportation to their destination.

I flew last weekend from Ft. Lauderdale to Phoenix (as part of a much longer trip on my way home to Oregon) and the family seated behind me had two small children. Dad sat with the baby directly behind me and Mom sat with the toddler across the aisle. The baby cried and had to be changed more times than I think any normal baby should need it, but as a baby the child didn't interfere with the flight process, just in our enjoyment (or lack thereof) of it. The toddler, however, was unable to remain in her seat, even when we were flying over the ice storms in Texas and the plane was bouncing so badly that the flight attendants were asked to strap in. A guy sitting a few rows behind me finally got up, grabbed the child, and thrust her into her mother's arms. He said something along the lines of, "If you can't restrain your child, be assured we will all be witnesses for the airline when you sue them over any injury she incurs or causes because she's loose in this kind of turbulence." The mom quickly strapped the child in and got her involved with a book. How hard was it for the mom to have done that in the first place? Sheesh!

Now, I love kids. I couldn't have any of my own but I love having my godschildren around me and I work for an agency that operates a pretty large Headstart. But I can't tolerate bad parenting like that. It gives me SUCH a headache!

[partiallyclips.livejournal.com]

The first airline that implements a "no children under 6" policy will be my airline for life and I don't care if I pay twice the going rate.

[ladyoceanstar.livejournal.com]

You and me both. And I may never fly AirTran again, either. They should NEVER have reimbursed that family, let alone given them free tickets to somewhere else.

not directed at anyone in particular, but WTF.

[eleri.livejournal.com]

And people wonder why we damn near never go out of the house anymore. Because people are so quick to assume that a screaming child is just being 'obnoxious' and parents are just 'clueless'. Thanks for all your fucking compassion.

I have an opporotunity to go to a disability conference, and it would be great to take Miri with me, so she could meet some damn important doctors. And you know why I can't take her? Because of crap like this. Because if she has a meltdown on that plane, people will treat me like shit and assume I'm a lousy parent. Either that, or I'm supposed to *SEDATE* her? The hell? Are you a doctor that you know what's safe for her?

Just remember, when you shoot your nasty looks at parents with a crying, screaming child, when you get all superiour about being childfree and how we're 'inflicting' our children on you, that you don't know JACK SHIT about that family, you don't know SHIT about what they go through on a daily basis.

Re: not directed at anyone in particular, but WTF.

[susan-the-rogue.livejournal.com]

And people wonder why we damn near never go out of the house anymore. Because people are so quick to assume that a screaming child is just being 'obnoxious' and parents are just 'clueless'. Thanks for all your fucking compassion.

Working in retail, I see a lot of children who are extremely obnoxious, but not always because the children are clueless, and the only time I've shot a nasty look at any parent was when I was at the theater with my father and a friend, trying to watch "Sky High". They had about four or five children, ages 5 and up, and they were talking loudly and calling out what happens in a particular scene before it happens. That ruins the movie-going experience.

And when a child is screaming "No!" at his brother and sister and hitting his father before screaming in his face, because he wouldn't stop messing with things on the shelves in a previous store and now has to spend the entire time in our store by sitting in a buggy, I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for the parent. I may not know jack shit about their home life or what they go through on a daily basis, but I do know that I'm proud of them for sticking to their convictions, and not allowing their child to push them around, even at the cost of their eardrums.

[giza.livejournal.com]

Alcohol consumption impairs hearing.

And that would be why I drink when I fly.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Put me in with the parents who lay this squarely at the feet of the parents involved. They ought to have made it clear that the child's behavior was unacceptable (having prepared her to fly; one good way to do that is by playing "airplane" beforehand, so that she has a concept of what's okay and what is not) and placed her in the seat, willy-nilly.

The implication often made by the childfree that children and families including them ought to be second-class citizens disturbs me; it comes in all shades and degrees, and I don't entirely disagree with it. There are places kids ought not to go until they're ready, like fancy restaurants and theater not aimed at them. Nevertheless, they need practice behaving, or they never will learn, and sometimes, they're gonna break under the stress. As a parent of now 8- and 6-year olds, we've seen our kids do mostly pretty well in "adult" situations like cons and restaurants, but have had the occasional meltdown. (In most of those, we got them right out; once or twice, it was correct to stay -- the place was a family restaurant, food was what was needed to solve the meltdown, and had been slow to arrive.) Still, having heard some of the more radical childfree folks around (none of whom that I recognize are in this discussion) state clearly that kids ought to be completely segregated from adults until they're at least teenagers, I am very wary of any talk in that direction.