Existential Flame War
Aug. 5th, 2007 08:22 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
The LJ thing is getting really ugly.
Just gohere here. (Original link courtesy of
ataniell93; revised link courtesy of
cacie.) The very first comment is made by
burr86.
A LiveJournal employee.
Using his LiveJournal professional account.
Dude couldn't even create a sock puppet to be snarky with.
I usually don't go back and patronize places that treat their customers like this. And I usually give the manager a firm and slightly loud piece of my mind before heading out the door.
Current thoughts on the unpleasantness?
(Also,
hanabishirecca has created a community,
fandom_action, about legal protection for fan creations.)
ETA:
eleri, the mod of that community, deleted the post (reasons below in comments). Here is a good link to it, but if you don't want to load a 1 MB+ HTML page, here's the gist of it:
efw, but that an employee of LiveJournal/SixApart, using his work account -- the one in which he replies (or doesn't reply) to users' concerns -- is snarking to a user about an issue the user has with LJ/SA. And in a way that implies that anyone who likes the art is a pedophile. (I have seen the art, which doesn't do a thing for me, but it is in fact two adult characters in a consentual relationship.)
Bluntly, it's like going into Burger King, paying for the burger, and then they follow you out to the table and change your burger while you're eating it -- grab it out of your hand and take out the tomato and put in some pickles -- and you say, "Excuse me, but what the hell are you doing? I paid for that" and the BK employee doing it says, "Oh, you're one of those people who likes that kind of burger. Well, you're not welcome here, but we'll keep your money."
Or something.
If he wanted to snark along with everybody else, he should've done it from a sock-puppet account. Or said, "Listen, guys, completely outside of the situation...". Or actually tried to address the problem, as a lot of LJers have been asking LJ/SA to do.
That's why everybody was ticked off. It has nothing to do with fandom, fanfic, or even whether something is child porn -- it's that one of the only responses LJ has made over the past few days to a growing number of questions... is insulting snark.
Just go
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
A LiveJournal employee.
Using his LiveJournal professional account.
Dude couldn't even create a sock puppet to be snarky with.
I usually don't go back and patronize places that treat their customers like this. And I usually give the manager a firm and slightly loud piece of my mind before heading out the door.
Current thoughts on the unpleasantness?
(Also,
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
ETA:
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
Captain Sassy Pants (To me, the problem is not that it's fandom wank, not that it's inpirate_eggie) wrote in
efw:
POST DETAILING HOW IMPORTANT THE OP'S ADDICTION TO HARRY POTTER FANART IS AND HOW LJ/SA'S LATEST EGREGIOUS INSULT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH WILL ULTIMATELY LEAD TO THE OP'S DEPARTING LIVEJOURNAL FOR MORE CHILD PORN-FRIENDLY WATERS
SOME STUPID MACRO ABOUT STRIKETHROUGH '07 AND A HACKNEYED COPYPASTA PIRATE SONG
INVOCATION OF GODWIN'S LAW
First comment in the thread, byburr86 (LJ employee Abe Hassan):
Clarification that the subjects of the drawings were at least six years old, thank you very much.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
Bluntly, it's like going into Burger King, paying for the burger, and then they follow you out to the table and change your burger while you're eating it -- grab it out of your hand and take out the tomato and put in some pickles -- and you say, "Excuse me, but what the hell are you doing? I paid for that" and the BK employee doing it says, "Oh, you're one of those people who likes that kind of burger. Well, you're not welcome here, but we'll keep your money."
Or something.
If he wanted to snark along with everybody else, he should've done it from a sock-puppet account. Or said, "Listen, guys, completely outside of the situation...". Or actually tried to address the problem, as a lot of LJers have been asking LJ/SA to do.
That's why everybody was ticked off. It has nothing to do with fandom, fanfic, or even whether something is child porn -- it's that one of the only responses LJ has made over the past few days to a growing number of questions... is insulting snark.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 12:40 pm (UTC)Still, I think he pretty much got what he deserved, all things considered.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 12:52 pm (UTC)The manager -- who was seated at a desk in public view within earshot of a long line of customers -- chewed her out for even asking, said she was making too many exceptions already ... and referred to me as both "that little bitch" and "some college whore" during the conversation.
When the teller got back to me I told her the cashback was a moot point because I had overheard the conversation and was closing my account immediately. She didn't even try to argue.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:09 pm (UTC)They told him he couldn't because he had a state ID card rather than a drivers license. This in spite of the fact that the *state* says that said ID card is to be accepted just the same as a driver's license for anything that isn't driving related. My friend being an epileptic couldn't *get* a driver's license. Which he explained.
They told him it wasn't their problem. So he went and had a chat with a lawyer.
Fast forward a bit. They lost the ADA lawsuit (it's illegal to set up that sort of rule where a person with a disability can't qualify just because you are being an ass). The judge had a few choice things to say to the bank as well about not just the ADA issue but also the fact that they were *required* to accept the state ID cards.
Oh yes, as part of the settlement my friend demanded (and got) a framed apology from the President of the bank...
So, he strolls down to the same branch of the bank *with a copy of the court order*. And they tell him that the don't accept state ID cards. He manages to get them to call the main office. Much back and forth on the phone.
Meanwhile, I have another friend (who also knows the first friend) she just so happened to work in customer service at the main office. She didn't get the call, but the cluster of folks wasn't far from her desk.
As she tells it, one of the Feds wandered by and asked what was going on. When they told him, he blew his top and told them to open the account *now*.
The next day a rather pointed memo went out to all employees explaining in *great* detail that they *did* have to treat the state IDs the same as driver's licenses and that any complaints about them failing to do so would result in termination.
Sometimes the good guys win...
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:10 pm (UTC)Well, it's a joke response to a joke post, taken in context. Putting aside wether they should have posted at all (and they probably shouldn't have as a known employee), People are over-reacting, the standard righteous indignation stuff included, but unless he's 12 years old he should have seen that coming, especially since 6A seems to be keeping otherwise silent so anything from an employee would be lept on.
So it was a particularly stupid move on his part.
I don't know if it counts as a 'meme', but since it's stuck around quite a while now it's just one of the many iterations of the old Bash.org classic
http://bash.org/?23396
*Donut[AFK]* HEY EURAKARTE
*Donut[AFK]* INSULT
*Eurakarte* RETORT
*Donut[AFK]* COUNTER-RETORT
*Eurakarte* QUESTIONING OF SEXUAL PREFERENCE
*Donut[AFK]* SUGGESTION TO SHUT THE FUCK UP
*Eurakarte* NOTATION THAT YOU CREATE A VACUUM
*Donut[AFK]* RIPOSTE
*Donut[AFK]* ADDON RIPOSTE
*Eurakarte* COUNTER-RIPOSTE
*Donut[AFK]* COUNTER-COUNTER RIPOSTE
*Eurakarte* NONSENSICAL STATEMENT INVOLVING PLANKTON
*Miles_Prower* RESPONSE TO RANDOM STATEMENT AND THREAT TO BAN OPPOSING SIDES
*Eurakarte* WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD
*Miles_Prower* ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND ACCEPTENCE OF TERMS
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:12 pm (UTC)But... this sort of thing? Completely out of line. If they want to have snarky little conversations, at least do it somewhere friendslocked. I presume they are familiar with that technology.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:12 pm (UTC)And such accounts don't show on the lists on your profile page anymore.
In other words, they've tried to make such deletions/suspension "invisible".
As far as I'm concerned, that's *proof* that they are acting in bad faith. They are trying to keep us from noticing rather than acting in a manner such that it doesn't matter if we notice.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 01:23 pm (UTC)I have no idea if this is true or not and frankly I think you've got it right. But it's an alternate explanation. Does anyone have proof it's not true, such as a freshly-deleted account that went immediately to boldface or an account that currently produces a strikethrough?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-06 02:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 02:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 02:24 pm (UTC)Fandom is overreacting, and badly.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 03:32 pm (UTC)He's on vacation, but he stops in at his place of work while off the clock and starts insulting customers. Customers recognize him.
Most companies would terminate him anyway, even though he was off the clock.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 03:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:58 pm (UTC)b) Quoting gmth's open letter:
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 05:04 pm (UTC)It happens to pros and fans alike, and the idea that fandom is somehow immune because, hey, it's fandom! is boggling. Especially since you can find the same judgments happening in fandom, i.e. shipping-wars, "X is better than Y and anyone who likes X is an idiot!", etc.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 06:56 pm (UTC)It doesn't matter that he's "on vacation and his time's his own" (as you commented above). Because he wrote it, it's okay for us to judge him on that basis.
Nice to know where you stand.
_____
reposted to correct bad lj tag
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 08:30 pm (UTC)To touch on
Fandom on LJ doesn't exist in a happy little bubble of fans-only anymore. Perfect strangers may find what you write -- and you -- horribly offensive. If you're not ready to deal with that, don't post your stories publically.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-08 07:26 pm (UTC)Golly, thanks! What I needed was one more person telling me that fans are an overreacting, unreasonable bunch and that anybody can say anything they want about us, and that we have absolutely no right to complain about it!
Nobody's saying we're not ready to deal with a random stranger being a complete dick to us. As a slasher, I deal with that all the time, and I deal with it well, thank you. But I have every right and reason to be pissed the hell off when the owners of a company I patronize are being snarky to my kind. Moreover, I have every reason to complain about it wherever I want, and I can't understand why you seem so hell-bent on convincing us that our outrage isn't legitimate, our anger misdirected, and our actions futile.
So thanks a lot for your valiant and tragically unappreciated efforts to save us fen from ourselves, but I gotta tell ya: I'm an angry feminist leftist atheist pacifist pro-choice sex-positive female-identified nerdy fannish genderqueer vegetarian writer of Beatles slash. So there's about X0 million people lined up outside of my proverbial door right now trying to convince me to keep my mouth shut in just about every area of my life and every decision that I make, right down to the shirt I'm wearing.
Take a ticket n take a seat.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-09 03:14 am (UTC)Actually, I've seen a number of people say just that the last few days. And, if you'll look up, the quote from
I'm an angry feminist leftist atheist pacifist pro-choice sex-positive female-identified nerdy fannish genderqueer vegetarian writer of Beatles slash.
That's nice. I wonder if I can get that to scan?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 03:39 pm (UTC)Time to do some modly smackdown
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-06 12:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-07 07:52 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 03:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:14 pm (UTC)Yep - figured that out after I came back to this post and saw your comment. :-)
I must admit that I don't completely grok the community, probably because I don't completely grok existentialism.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:19 pm (UTC)It goes something like this:
"Proclamation of Greatest Filker In World"
"Argument in favor, long list of proofs"
"Disagreement, argument in opposition having little to do with filker in question"
And so forth...
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-06 07:47 am (UTC)2 Praise given to song.
3 Insults given to song.
4 Filker writes song about insults.
Got to 3
Must go look at your community sometime. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:07 pm (UTC)Ah well
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:22 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 04:57 pm (UTC)comment deleted & reposted
Date: 2007-08-05 05:03 pm (UTC)I'm sorry, but I just don't see why everyone is so pissed off. The EFW community is a fairly consistent source of hilarity, and the post in question was a joke (as posts on this community tend to be) and the person responding, though an employee of 6A, was also joking. The community is called "Existential Flame War" because that's what people do - flame each other in non-personal ways because it's funny.
I know that it's terrible that many many people had their journals wrongfully deleted and there was a grievous over-generalization in classifying all of fandom as pedofiles. But because an employee is trying to make light of a very very bad situation, that makes him/her a candidate for public crucifixion? From what I know of this debacle, they fixed and are continuing to fix the problems they created.
Perhaps there is another incident of which I am not aware that this is referring to? If there is some key information I'm missing, someone please tell me what it is, because I currently don't see why everyone is so up in arms.
Re: comment deleted & reposted
Date: 2007-08-05 10:03 pm (UTC)Re: comment deleted & reposted
Date: 2007-08-07 07:50 am (UTC)Re: comment deleted & reposted
Date: 2007-08-07 07:54 am (UTC)Re: comment deleted & reposted
Date: 2007-08-06 05:43 pm (UTC)Apology about posting in wrong community; halfhearted backpedaling of original rant.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 05:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 05:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 08:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 08:11 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 08:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 08:31 pm (UTC)I note that nobody was able to refute my argument, instead choosing to attack me. I take that as proof I was correct.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 08:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 09:44 pm (UTC)The original message referred to cases where somebody made an objectionable statement, somebody else objected, and the first person downplayed the objection.
The original statement was made in an objectionable way. I objected. You're downplaying the objection.
I won't say anything about what your inability to see that point makes you.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 05:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-05 06:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-08-06 12:30 pm (UTC)And, no, it is not "fandom overreacting." This is fandom reacting very, very predictably to LJ reneging on its word that the abuse-report process would be rendered transparent, clear, and with open avenues of communication/resolution for artists whose work is reported to abuse. This entire kerfluffle could have been avoided by simply asking the artists in question to remove the offending works. Instead, LJ responded in its usual heavy-handed manner and then compounded the initial stupidity with an egregious lack of professionalism poured on top.
I'm done. They will not get another penny from me.