Wartime Epics?

[filkertom]

A new Harris poll says that the most popular films of all time include SF epics and war movies.

The "war" movies they cite are Gone With the Wind, Casablanca, and The Sound of Music.

None of which I think of as "war" movies.

I mean, yeah, they've all got wars as backdrops, even as primary motivators... but they're all character pieces, romances even. To me, it's like saying Raiders of the Lost Ark is a war movie. The Lord of the Rings is definitely a war movie in its way, although I'd be loathe to sell it as one.

Discuss. And, if you like, name your favorite war movies. Mine would definitely be Patton.

Comments

[renquestor.livejournal.com]

"Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!"

[wookiee71.livejournal.com]

I'm quite partial to "Force 10 From Navaronne" or "Kelly's Heroes". Rather atypical war films, if they even are at all, but I love them.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

Watch "Guns of Navaronne". Much better than "Force 10"

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right. A war movie is about the war; those movies are about how the war affects the world. Both of those types have their places, and some of the greatest movies made are from one of those two; and, of course, like all genres they don't have bright-line rules. But to call Casablanca a war movie is inaccurate. Maybe a wartime movie.

I'm not sure I've seen a lot of war movies. Saving Private Ryan is the only one which leaps to mind. But then, there's a reason my Netflix queue has 300 discs in it--even when you discount the 70 or so which are X-Files, that's still a lot of movie.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

If you want an excellent film about the effects on the sideline of war, see "Hope and Glory".

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

"Patton", definitely.

"Kelly's Heroes" - For all its comedy it says a lot about war and the guys who fight it.

"The Blue Max" - Best Air War movie and says a lot about the propaganda of war.

"Saving Private Ryan" - Probably the most realistic experience of war.

"Aliens" - for all its SF-y-ness, it is a damn fine war film.

"Zulu", "Braveheart", "Platoon", "MASH"

But the question is, "What makes a GOOD war film?" Recreation of real battles? Huge clash of warriors? I have to say it is the films that show what is means to go to war, to fight one, to lead one. Let be get into the head of the commanders, or the grunts.

Positive waves

[ericcoleman]

Several other folks have mentioned it, I feel the need to too, Kelly's Heroes.

And M*A*S*H, which is very different, yet very similar to the TV show.

[sdelmonte]

I would call Casablanca a war movie because everything in that film is about the battle between the Allies and the Nazis. And maybe because it was made and released as part of the Hollywood war effort. But can see your point that it's certainly not a war film in the sense of depicting battle and military life.

Bridge on the River Kwai is my choice as greatest film ever, so it would of course be my choice as greatest war film, even if it takes an unconventional approach to war. Patton, The Great Escape and Glory are also high on my list.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

I definitely see what you're saying. I see it as every event in the movie is colored by the war, but it's not actually depicting the war. It may be a spy movie; on one level, Victor Laszlo is more of a Secret Weapon than a person, and the weapon has to be smuggled out. It gets more complicated because he's also a person, and Ilsa loves him, if not as much as she loves Rick.

[ladystarblade.livejournal.com]

Aside from those already mentioned, I nominate "Twelve O'Clock High"...Gregory Peck as a hard-core commander who takes a bomb group from terrible to top-notch...then has a breakdown himself. Great, great stuff...and I love his rant about the crew called "The Leper Colony."

"If there's a bombardier who can't hit his plate with a fork, you get him! If there's a navigator who can't find his way to the bathroom, you get him!"

It's a great balance of "war" scenes and character moments.

Unlike, say, Pearl Harbor. I still get ill to my stomach thinking about that movie...

[renquestor.livejournal.com]

Another movie I'm a fan of, one of the few John Wayne movies I adore, is In Harm's Way. Course, it's got a huge cast. Kirk Douglas, Carrol O'Connor, Burgess Meredith, and more.

Pearl Harbor was absolute shit. If only those Japanese soldiers killed both of the main characters, that would have been an awesome movie. I wish I woulda known about the production of that movie and what it was going to turn into, cause I would have tried to get an airstike called on the set.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

"Twelve O'Clock High" is a great film, but it is a great example of GOOD and TERRIBLE managerial styles.

And ICK.. you mentioned "Pe..Pea.. " THAT FILM! ICK.

Now I have to go watch "Tora Tora Tora" to get the taste out of my mind.

BTW: "Tora Tora Tora" is a great war film, extremely balanced showing both sides of the conflict.

AND.. if you haven't seen the combo of "Flags of Our Fathers" and "Letters From Iwo Jima" you should.

[jcw-da-dmg.livejournal.com]

My favorite "war movies" both involve Peter Sellers: The Mouse That Roared and Dr. Strangelove . . .

[madamruppy.livejournal.com]

Kelly's Heroe's
Cockleshell Heroe's
The Great Escape
The Dirty Dozen
Operation Pettycoat (I know but I do love it).
Mister Roberts
The Caine Mutiny

[wyattkelly.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...I'm partial to Civil War and WWII films, so I think my favorites would be:

Saving Private Ryan
The Longest Day
Gettysburg
Glory

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

Mine are Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Saving Private Ryan and Platoon (no particular order). Most of these I've watched maybe twice. I've probably watched Band of Brothers at least 4 times (all on History Channel), but that's a 10-part miniseries that was 705 minutes long (per IMDB). But it's still my absolute favorite.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Gettysburg

[jcw-da-dmg.livejournal.com]

To me, it's like saying Raiders of the Lost Ark is a war movie.

Speaking of which, some friends & I are engaged in a continual discussion ("debate" is the wrong word") about the relative effect of the presence of Indiana Jones in the movie - would more or fewer Nazis die if he never showed up?

[allandaros.livejournal.com]

The Guns of Navarone
The Great Escape
Gettysburg
Glory
Where Eagles Dare (thank you Alistair McLean!)
Apocalypse Now
All Quiet on the Western Front
Letters from Iwo Jima, of which I've only seen part but found it incredibly good

[ladyjeanetta.livejournal.com]

Gettysburg, definitely. And its sequel, Gods and Generals.

[siliconshaman.livejournal.com]

633 squadron... best flying sequences ever, largely because they used the original pilots and machines from the operation it was based on!

[ravenclaw-eric.livejournal.com]

Red Dawn---I loved the portrayal of Colonel Bella: "Once, I was a guerrilla. Now *voice thick with loathing* I am like you---a policeman!"

Tora, Tora, Tora---I'd want to show this movie in schools to show how Pearl Harbor happened. Best damn Pearl Harbor movie ever made, and by far, the most authentic.

Henry V---either version. Great story, and you can't beat the scriptwriter!

For a good overview of "Historical" movies in general, George MacDonald Fraser's book The Hollywood History of the World is superlatively good. Fraser Knew Where His D*mn Towel Was on history, and also knew the movie biz from the inside.

[dan-ad-nauseam.livejournal.com]

I would like to see film versions of Forever War (long version, please) or Bill, the Galactic Hero, but I doubt either of them will happen.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Bridge on the River Kwai is definitely up there. So's Dr. Strangelove. And Das Boot. And V.

Another arguably non-war-movie that I love is Good Morning Vietnam; again, there's no denying the existence of the conflict, but it's not about the scars and the battles we've lost. (And one of the all-time great non-original soundtracks.)

Of the three in your original post, I'd say the closest thing to a war movie is Casablanca, because the war is involved in the plot most directly. Sure, the men in Scarlett's life go to and from the war, but even when it's right outside her door, the movie's about her. Rick et al., though, are dealing with the German army and intelligence as well as each other, to an extent where I'm not willing to call it a war flick, but it's more than just a character piece.

ETA: I'm not sure if I'd count Schindler's List, either, but if so, add it near the top of the heap.

[gavroche42.livejournal.com]

To be fair, the article categorizes Sound of Music as a musical - in the "rounding out the top 10' paragraph. It's only Casablanca and Gone with the Wind they directly classify as War, and Lord of the Rings and Star Wars as SF. (Both of which as you point out could also be War.)

I don't watch typical War movies.
Let's go with Shaun of the Dead

Going for movies not listed yet.

[beldar.livejournal.com]

Shoot, if you want to stretch the definition of "war movies," Mel Brooks' "To Be or Not to Be" would have to be listed. And no one has mentioned "Star Wars" even though it's in the *name*!

Say it's propaganda, but I still enjoyed "The Green Berets"
Probably driven by the same urge that had me loving the Jerry Lewis farce "Which Way to the Front?"
"Full Metal Jacket" would have to be on my list, it's like *two* great films.

And I was very impressed with the more recent film "Jarhead." Those who want to sign on the line at the recruiter MUST watch that film first.

And even though I hated Daniel Day Lewis's performance in "Last of the Mohicans" the battle scenes of the French and Indian war were awesome; totally saved the movie from being a waste of time for me.

[beldar.livejournal.com]

And after I post, I think of two more favorites:

"To Hell and Back" (Audie Murphy reenacts the battle that won him the Medal of Honor)

"Memphis Belle"

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

I'll second the recommendation for Henry V -- although I have a strong preference for the Branagh version.

By and large I don't watch "war movies", or even movies about the effects of war, so that and Star Wars are about it for me.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

A Bridge Too Far
Patton
84-Charlie MoPic
Blackhawk Down
Cross of Iron
The Longest Day
Platoon

Best non-war war movies have to be:

Born on the 4th of July
Catch-22
Good Morning, Vietnam

And a special mention to the HBO series "Band of Brothers".

I'm amazed no one has ever made a film of the Battle of Camerone. Brad Pitt as Lt. Maudet!

Once Netflix delivers it, I imagine "Letters from Iwo Jima" will go to the top of the list.

[maiac.livejournal.com]

Favorite war movie? Lawrence of Arabia. Because it's my favorite movie, period.

And Branagh's Henry V.

[ororo.livejournal.com]

Great Escape
Platoon
The Killing Fields

[maiac.livejournal.com]

As for the question of "what is a war movie?": It's a "war movie" if the war is the main subject of the movie, not just the setting. Casablanca and Gone With the Wind are not war movies.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

I had a minor in military history, so the movie has to at least make some sense for me to be interested in it.

My favorites:

Das Boot--It sends chills up my spine every time I think about it.

Band of Brothers--Historically accurate and extraordinary human. It's probably the best piece of work ever done on WW2.

Saving Private Ryan--My father landed on Omaha Beach just out of camera shot to the right of Tom Hanks' landing craft. He spent his first night on the continent with the 2nd Rangers. Spielberg screwed up in the tank-representation towards the end of the movie, but I'm willing to forgive that.

Enemy At the Gates--The Soviet Union lost more civilians in Leningrad than the US lost soldiers in the entire war. We need more movies about their contribution.

Schindler's List--Evil has always been easy to understand. Good is a lot more complicated, especially when it's completely against one's self-interest.

Casablanca--Many battles are not won by rifles, but by ideas. The "battle scene" between the Nazis and the rest of Rick's Cafe using music is one of the most memorable ever on film. It is notable that when this movie was made, the US and the Allies were losing the war, badly. I consider this not only the best war movie, but the best overall film ever made. As far as I'm concerned, it is a perfect movie the way Hamlet is the perfect play. Not a word, not a scene, not a glance out of place, and so many lines have been adopted into our culture that it will last forever.

TC

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Saving Private Ryan, I like, respect, and admire. Schindler's List, I love and weep over. What a movie. What a movie. Anne, Leslie, and I stood out in the parking lot -- I mean, we didn't even get to a restaurant like we usually do, just stood out in the parking lot for over an hour talking about that film.

Lots of people agree with you regarding Casablanca. Heck, I used to be one of 'em, until Peter Jackson made TLotR. But it took twelve hours of that to supplant less than two of Casablanca, and not by much.

And, yes, the dueling anthems scene is gripping and stirring and you can feel every drop of tension as everyone in the place starts to wonder what will happen next. Fabulous filmmaking.

[zibblsnrt.livejournal.com]

The Soviet Union lost more civilians in Leningrad than the US lost soldiers in the entire war. We need more movies about their contribution.

Do you know of any other movies from their perspective?

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

There are several on this list:

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/dvdandfilmresources/tp/aatpww2dvdef.htm

I can personally vouch for Cross of Iron and the subtitled version of Stalingrad as being both interesting and historically accurate.

Ballad of a Soldier is wonderful, but concentrates more on the changes that war makes in people.

I haven't seen the rest, but Kanal is supposed to be very good.

TC Trumpinski

[bigbumble.livejournal.com]

One I haven't seen listed so far is "The Battle of Britain". A number of the scenes in the "Star Wars" series are copied from scenes in that movie.

[mbumby.livejournal.com]

Breaker Morant.

[gan-chan.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite 'war movies' that hasn't been mentioned yet is Mister Roberts.

War Pictures

[hvideo.livejournal.com]

They called Casablanca a "WWII Romance", so they seemed aware that WWII was a setting, not the star of the show. It's still an all-time classic. Gone With the Wind, too. South Pacific and Mr. Roberts and M*A*S*H likewise have the war more as a setting than as a centerpiece.

Patton, The Great Escape, The Battle of the Bulge, Stallag 17, Twelve O'Clock High, The Devil's Brigade, The Dirty Dozen, Kelly's Heroes, Zulu, Apocalypse Now, The Battle of Britain, Das Boot, Run Silent Run Deep, The Sand Pebbles, these would be more War Pictures that I'd put up for repeated viewing.

Dr. Strangelove was mentioned - yes, some great lines, but also much that doesn't appeal to me. Along the same general lines (a very short nuclear war) I prefer Fail-Safe.

There are many good films that just don't draw me back for repeated viewing. Tora, Tora, Tora and Saving Private Ryan are examples. I intellectually recognize that they have merit but they nonetheless don't attract me the same way that the ones I put above do.

Re: War Pictures

[gan-chan.livejournal.com]

Ohh yeah, I forgot Run Silent, Run Deep. That's a great one. The book it's based on is good too.

[ldhenson.livejournal.com]

I don't have much of a stomach for war movies, so they have to be extraordinary before I'm able to sit through them.

That said, Band of Brothers and Tora! Tora! Tora! are at the top of the list.

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

Kurosawa's Shichi No Samurai (Seven Samurai) -- yesterday, today, tomorrow. A war film peeled right down to the basic bare bones, so intimate that every death is a blow to the heart. And like every other disbanded army, the survivors find themselves sidelined, forgotten, shunned by the people they saved.

[soojaebi.livejournal.com]

As a lot of my favourite movies have been added to the list I will add one that hasn't been mentioned, Taeguki.