... And Then There's Hillary

[filkertom]

Oy.

If you haven't heard what made basically the entire blogosphere lose it on Friday, this diary at Daily Kos has pretty much the whole foofrah. (Except for the truly sick addendum from Faux Noise.) You can also go here for a less video-intensive page.

I am quite sure that Sen. Clinton did not consciously mean to suggest that she's hanging around hoping that Obama will be shot.

But.

As Keith Olbermann points out in his explosive Special Comment from Friday night, this is merely the latest in a long string of bizarre and dangerous statements from Clinton or her camp.

This is not the "judgment" that I want to see exercised during that mythical 3:00 a.m. call.

And, for the very first time, I waver.

If Hillary Clinton is the Dem nominee for president, I don't know for sure that I'd vote for her.

That is what you are doing to our party, Senator Clinton. Please, please stop.

Comments

I am NOT waivering

[capplor.livejournal.com]

The alternative is McSame, Mr Ba-ba-bomb Iran, I-will-never-vote-for-torture-until-I-did, Vote-against-my-own-veteran's-bill, seek-the-wingnut-right-endorsement doesn't-know-shi'ite-from-shinola .....

-- Robin

[aulayan.livejournal.com]

The sad thing is...this is how I've been feeling for a few months. I know, it's now "Sexist" to say she's acting power hungry by hanging on and possibly wanting her supporters to force a Veep nomination down Senator Obama's throat, but I'd feel the same way if it was a guy doing this bullshit.

This whole thing is fucking ridiculous. And in all honesty, I'm willing to bet money that this is what is going to stop the expected Republican slide. I figure that no matter who is the nominee (Obama), Senator Clinton has caused too much damage and the Republicans win the presidency again.

Get clear on the concept

[capplor.livejournal.com]

There is sexism in some arguments opposing Clinton, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to say anything bad about her or point out her actions for fear you MIGHT be tarred with that brush. That would not be fair to the process.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

I can't waver. Because that Faux News announcer is McCain's constituency, and if gods forbid the choice is between horrible and catastrophic, I'm still on board with avoiding utter catastrophe.

I still miss my progressive candidates being in the race.

[fabricdragon.livejournal.com]

having been out of news contact, i get to come back and find this and try to make some sense of it....

i am left scratching my head and trying to figure out what she was trying to say.... its..... odd.

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

"It is clear from the context that Hillary was invoking a familiar political circumstance in order to support her decision to stay in the race through June. I have heard her make this reference before, also citing her husband's 1992 race, both of which were hard fought through June. I understand how highly charged the atmosphere is, but I think it is a mistake for people to take offense."--RFK, Jr.

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

If Hillary Clinton is the Dem nominee for president, I don't know for sure that I'd vote for her.

What other options are there? Apart from the Repiblican or not at all?

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

Move to another country?

Not a really practical solution, though.

[argonel.livejournal.com]

You can always make a protest vote for Daffy Duck, or Ralph Nader, or the homeless bum down the street. Just because your vote doesn't count towards getting someone elected doesn't mean it doesn't count against the people you don't want in charge.

Holding your nose and voting for someone you don't want is counted the same as if you were a strong supporter of them.

[aulayan.livejournal.com]

Eh. As much as I respect Barr for his pro-privacy stuff and for adding the sunset clause to the Patriot Act...I still remember him trying to ban the practice of Wicca in the military, even (IIRC) Stating that allowing it leads to Satanism and being one of the authors of the Defense of Marriage Act.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

*hangs head*

Why did Edwards drop out instead of Hillary?

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Because in a race that focused on identity politics (and let's face it, the idea of breaking the "White Southern Male" mold is appealing, in a vacuum), he didn't generate the excitement or money that Clinton, or, particularly, Obama did. Which is a shame, because he was head, shoulders, and torso above them on the issues.

At this point I'm working to get Obama in, and then to keep reminding him whence his votes came, when it comes to taking stands.

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

It's not poor judgement, any more than Al Gore was a liar (he actually was one the rare honest pols)--she's just getting smeared.

[hitchkitty.livejournal.com]

If it wasn't poor judgement, then it was a deliberate choice to suggest that she was sticking around in case Obama was assassinated. If it wasn't poor judgement, then she knew perfectly well how her words would be taken.

I'm sorry, but there's simply no context in which her RFK observations look good.

[ladystarblade.livejournal.com]

I also don't think she meant what it sounded like, but as Keith pointed out, in an election this fraught with tension and underlying, long-held prejudices, she can't keep coming out and saying things like that. She keeps saying that she's so experienced and knows what she's doing...and she keeps sticking her foot in her mouth...and then tries to ignore it, pretend it never happened, or offer some mealymouthed apology that almost no one believes.

You can't bring up political assassination, whatever the context, during a political race...that's just dumb, and not the kind of move I want to see from someone who wants to run this country.

[infinitemorning.livejournal.com]

See, for me, there's still no question. If it comes down to Clinton or McCain, I'll vote Clinton. I'll do so knowing that she almost certainly won't win, and I'll hate myself for doing so, but I'd hate myself more if I voted Green or some such on principle and she had a narrow loss...and the idea of a McCain presidency is too terrible, at this point, for me to contemplate. I might have felt differently before he pandered to the right, or before he decided torture was okay as long as it was America doing it, but now I see a man who is without principle. Clinton, power-hungry and increasingly bizarre as she is, still at least has one or two.

What drives me up the wall, though, is the fact that I know -- KNOW -- that there are states Clinton has probably carried in part because Republican voters are voting in OUR primaries. A number of Republicans have come out and said that they're voting for Clinton in Democratic primaries specifically to try and cripple our party's chances of claiming the White House, and guess what? They're winning.

Now it might be legal in those states, but morally, it's a shitty thing to do. I'm a registered Democrat. I don't vote in Republican primaries, even though I could. My father has, sometimes, but he's an independent and he goes with whatever party he agrees most with. (The last twenty years, I believe, he's voted solidly Dem anyway.) My belief is that it's just morally wrong to vote for someone you don't believe in solely to try and keep the other side from winning.

That's not going to stop the GOP, of course. They're the party of moral reprehensibility. But it fills me with impotent rage every time I think about it.

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

In listening to Keith's special comment I have to say that I agree with him on this. What Hillary said wasn't only offensive and utterly irresponsible, it was completely vulgar.

Regrettably though, and I truly do hate to say this, it's something I've seen coming for quite some time. Not from any particular person mind you, but from anyone involved in the process.

Politics has become a vulgar affair where opponents attack each other rather than talk about their differences on the issues. It's become a place where news agencies will talk about a man's wife instead of what he might do as President and will claim to fairness while at the same time trying to destroy a candidate they don't want in the race. It's become a place where people who support a candidate will run adds attacking their chosen candidate's opponent without regard for the whole truth. It's become a crass thing there the issues are lost amidst a sea of tirades accusing an American citizen of things they aren't guilty of.

And now we have a candidate bring up that horrible elephant in the room. The spector of assassination that we all know is there because such threats are always lingering. She implies, whether by choice or by accident, that she's only there because thinks something bad might happen to the other guy. We can longer accept this kind of behaviour from those who want to be our leaders. We have to, as one people, stand and say no more. This isn't the kind of process I want to leave behind for future generations.

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

She didn't say it, at least not in the sense you mean.

"Politics has become a vulgar affair where opponents attack each other rather than talk about their differences on the issues." Um, seems to me this isn't much of a change.

[siliconshaman.livejournal.com]

Clinton, Bush, McCain.. meh, what's the difference really? They're all career politicians who'd sell their own grandmother down the river if they thought it would get them more votes.

Lets face it, the entire system is corrupt and broken and the only thing you can say about it is that if they aren't amoral bastards when they're elected into office, they will be before they leave.

Obama seems like genuinely decent guy ... which means he'll probably last at most 6 months before the job eats away at his soul. [Look at our Tony and what happened to him!] Not electing him would probably be the kindest thing to do, for him anyway. But if he is, he might clean up the Whitehouse a bit before it eats him alive.

Still, there's a difference between reluctantly getting your hands dirty, and diving into the muck headfirst like Hillary. By the sound of it, she'd relish the job. Which ought to make her invalid for it, in a fair and just world... which this isn't.

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

But Clinton or Obama would not have gone to war, killing over a million Iraqis, or secretly imprison 27,000 people (http://www.chris-floyd.com/content/view/1517/135/). Get off it already. We seem to be treating this election as some kind of therapy for the US political system. Well, and maybe it is, but if it is it's therapy for a mass-murdering war criminal. Could we please not have this nonsense about how all the candidates are the same? They aren't, not even close.

[realinterrobang.livejournal.com]

I read the transcript of the entire statement she made, and what it sounded like to me was she was saying "RFK was still campaigning in June in Chicago when he was assasinated." In a long statement about the merits or demerits of campaigning in June, that's a pretty non-startling thing.

It was not, granted, the best example to use, but I'm really not impressed with this. It looks like more of the same crap bullying "Get out of the race" shit that people have been pushing on her ever since Obama got into it.

Disclosure: I am not a Hillary Clinton supporter; I can't even vote in your elections, being Canadian and all, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason I give a shit about this election is that things tend to go harder for the Americans who are my friends and the rest of the world when Republicans are making decisions in the US.

[emiofbrie.livejournal.com]

Now, though, if Obama *does* get assassinated, no matter who the press tries to tell us "did it", you know who, in the court of public opinion, the REAL first suspects would be....

[admnaismith.livejournal.com]

If Obama's fool enough to pick her for VP, I just hope he has a food-taster is all.

More likely, he needs an alibi for the mysterious impeachment-worthy scandal that's sure to pop up during his first month in office.

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

I'm bowing out of this thread--I don't like how I'm feeling while I write this. Sorry, Tom.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

If Hillary Clinton is the Dem nominee for president, I don't know for sure that I'd vote for her.

It's been months since I've thought I'd vote *for* Hillary if she were the choice, but I'm still dead set on voting *against* McCain. He fooled me once in the 2000 primary, but after the way he sold me down the river with his speech at that year's Republican convention, he won't fool me again.

[jenrose]

Yeah. That.

[morpheus0013.livejournal.com]

If Hillary Clinton is the Dem nominee for president, I don't know for sure that I'd vote for her.

This is why when people tell me how evil Clinton supporters are for saying the same thing about Obama, I go all googly eyed and just shake my head.

WE are doing this damage to our party, not Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. WE should stop. Please, please stop.

[bschilli.livejournal.com]

I am extremely unhappy with all the "If my candidate doesn't win, I'm taking my ball and going home" types. I have six huge reasons why we need to have a Democrat in the White House.

John Paul Stevens - currently 88, will be 92 at the end of the next term.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg - currently 75, will be 79.
Antonin Scalia - currently 72, will be 76.
Anthony Kennedy - currently 71, will be 75.
Steven Breyer - currently 69, will be 73.
David Souter - currently 68, will be 72.

Actually, I think John Paul Stevens will be dead by 2013, mainly because 88 year old men rarely live another four years.

Ben

[lariss.livejournal.com]

I'm terrified of exactly this: people letting the damned War Party in for a THIRD term, simply because they don't like Dem A or Dem B for whatever reason.
I'm not in love with Hillary - My guy always has been and always will be Dennis Kucinich - but I have seen enough of her to believe that, in office, she would do quite well.
She would certainly serve all of us better than McCain.
And even abstaining from voting in protest puts us in danger - and that is REAL danger - of having him as our leader.
Emotions are silly things when it comes to politics.
We desperately need someone who is Not A Hawk at the wheel for awhile.
Again, I have to say that I am disappointed in Ms Clinton's general presentation, but that does NOT mean that McCain is a better choice.
Please, let's not poke out our eyes because we don't like the current landscape...

[tomreedtoon.livejournal.com]

First, it is mathematically improbable that Clinton could get the nomination at this point.

Second, what she is doing is trying to keep some presence in the Democratic Party for her "percieved" challenge to Obama in 2012. And some kind of voice at the table during his administration.

Third, she has shown herself so desperate and so much against party unity with this statement that she may have become a pariah, not only in the White House, but in the Senate.