6,000 Years Old And Counting

[filkertom]

In the 17th Century, Archbishop James Ussher of Armagh worked out his own timeline for the history of the Biblical world, starting with the precise moment when God said "Let there be light" -- nightfall preceding October 23, 4004 B.C.

It was a well-meant calculation, but it has a few problems -- inconsistency of written records, lack of a formal calendar for much of the period covered in the Bible, and ignorance of science. (Not to mention that, if Light was created at nightfall, then either there wasn't a night, or it took God several hours to pull the trigger. Not precisely omnipotent, but hey.) For the most part, it's been abandoned as a serious chronology.

But not by everyone. Many Biblical literalists insist that God spake in 4004 B.C., and all the evidence of anything before that time -- fossils, geologic layers, older civilization, whatever -- was put there by God to test the faith of his children.

And some of those children are using their concept of the age of the earth to influence environmental law. In this case, the argument literally is, the earth is 6,000 years old, and somehow it survived before environmental regulation, and we need the money, and you'll never even know the uranium mine is there.

Short-term profit at the expense of the only environment we have. Blind faith. Mistrust of science because they feel it threatens their faith.

I just don't get it. And I don't think I ever will.

Comments

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

This is also the basis for many of the standard arguments that the Earth is flat.

Myself, I think it's flat because somebody forgot to put the cap back on and left it out overnight.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Hm. "Let there be Diet". Naaaaaaah.

[darthparadox.livejournal.com]

"Diet Lux", maybe?

[banjoplayinnerd.livejournal.com]

What's the point? I wouldn't even eat regular Lux. (http://eshop.ambroweb.com/images/product/LUX.bmp)

[robin-june.livejournal.com]

Oooh! Milk and Honey? That's a new flavor of Lux!






(and so biblical in its reference . . .)

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

My parents taught me about Science, Darwin, Mendel et al long before I learned any bible stories. I've never understood this medieval mindset.

[aiela.livejournal.com]

Someone mis-emailed me the other day, and there was a link to their blog in the .sig, so I clicked.

O M G.

Her daughter had an upset stomach, but they cuddled up and prayed together, and she FELT BETTER!

She was angry at her husband, but that was just Satan trying to bust up her marriage, so she prayed and got over it!

*headdesk*

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

The theological problem with this one is that gives Satan at least equal and often more power than God, technically. Which means you are creating another competing godly power, even if it's evol.
Yah, few Jesuits have gone round and round on that one.
Let's not get started on free will.
I see this whole argument being used way too often to justify whatever short-sighted greedhead and ultimately damaging extractive resource use that the faith-based exploiter feels like taking advantage of. Cyanide heapleach mining, leveling mountains, failing to restore tailings as far as the eye can see to a non-poisonous, non-radioactive status...

[aiela.livejournal.com]

But God will take care of us!

(The part that really got me about her blog post about Satan was I just wanted to thwap her upside the head and say "Maybe your husband was just being a DICK!")

But its all very scary when very real, measurable environmental things are being ignored because something intangible is going to take care of us, or save us, or render it a moot point.

I mean, maybe. But what if you're wrong? There's no leeway for even suggesting that maybe you should make an effort, as well as counting on God. Its like the joke with the "I sent three boats, what more did you want?!" punchline.

[hitchkitty.livejournal.com]

Or, as I put it just yesterday:

"'Holistic healing' does not, or at least should not, mean 'faith healing'. 'Holistic' means 'encompassing all' -- as in 'Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel'. Fine, pray if it makes you feel better, but go see a frigging doctor, too!"

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

Particularly with "faith-based-only" health care for minors who can't decide for themselves. You can refuse any interventions if you are an adult; but you can't subject your minor children to a lack of medical treatment.
The courts have ruled on that one a number of times.

[dan-ad-nauseam.livejournal.com]

There's a negligent homicide case arising out of an unsuccessful faith healing being tried right now in Oregon. The defense, basically, is "We thought she was improving" and "The tumor wasn't the cause of death, an infection was."

[mbumby.livejournal.com]

Mmm, but the other year I was in New Orleans, and banged my knee up badly enough that while driving I was reaching down with my hands to pick my leg up to move between the brake and the gas -- and the friend I was with did a walk-through of a ... church for a faith I do not remotely share ... and, while I did no praying, heck if I wasn't walking a lot better when I left. Kinda spooky!

[shekkara.livejournal.com]

I don't see an issue with the archibishop saying "at nightfall" as that means China got to see the sun blaze into light. :-)

[kightp.livejournal.com]

Well, hey, if she's gonna be all literalist about it, why worry about the future of "our children and grandchildren"? Armageddon's coming!

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

You know, they conveniently ignore the idea that we don't *own* this joint, that we're supposed to be *good stewards* of it...

But then, the root word of fundamentalist is "fundament". As, that upon which you *sit*.

*sigh* you're not SUPPOSED to get it, it *doesn't* make sense. It's like Chewbacca. Chewbacca does not make sense. You must acquit!

[allandaros.livejournal.com]

Hey now. Chewbacca makes sense. It's just him living on Endor that doesn't make sense.

[ericthemage.livejournal.com]

http://xkcd.com/154/

[bryanp.livejournal.com]

xkcd. I love that comic. And this one in particular.

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

I think I can shed some light, no pun intended, on the evening-morning separation. In the Jewish tradition one day goes from sunset to sunset. So Monday would begin around sunset on Sunday evening and end at sunset the next day. Sunset to sunrise would then be the first half of the day while sunrise to sunset would be the completion of the day.

As to the age of the earth I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know. God doesn't tell us, and I'm not sure the argument is worth having in most situations. The two sides will never agree and such arguments typically degenerate into name calling, at least in my experience.

Most Christians don't reject the totality of science, that would be outright foolish. There are points at which they disagree with the interpretation of evidence or what constitutes evidence but that can be a healthy debate. In fact we should debate the evidence and keep testing it, pointing out the places where there's been fraud or distortion, on both sides of the argument, if only to keep people honest.

Part of being a good steward is taking care of what we've been blessed with. I've been a supporter of nuclear energy for a long time, if only because it would power so much of the country and free up resources that would could put elsewhere. Now I also think that we should invest in natural gas, coal to oil, solar, wind, hydro-electric, hydrogen fuel cell technology, and other energy technology. We need to look at all options to see what's best for the country in both economic and ecological terms.

I've thought long and hard about what I believe and these are the conclusions that I've come to after much thought and prayer on the matter.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

God doesn't tell us

I find this statement very surprising. We are able to calculate the age of the universe theoretically and experimentally and come up consistently with a number in the vicinity of 13 billion years. Absent a reason to doubt the methodology of both theory and experiment -- and I haven't seen one -- either God told us the age of the universe through the mechanism of designing a universe subject to observation via scientific method or God's a liar.

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

Allow me to clarify. I meant that within the Bible itself no dates are given for the creation of the world.

[aylinn.livejournal.com]

Personally, I've always thought that Echo's Children said it best:
http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML

However.

No matter what you believe, you can't turn your brain off. That's the real problem. Faith does NOT preclude thought.

[crysthewolf.livejournal.com]

K, I was a fundamentalist evangelical Christian for eight years (sad, I know. Luckily I'm being sufficiently corrupted now to make up for it. Bwa ha ha ha ha!!!), and I think that 6,000 year old earth theory is one of the most blatantly ridiculous and pig-headed ideas out there.

But even WITH that, I can't see how it can possibly used to argue with environmentalists or support a uranium mine. So, even IF the earth had survived for 6,000 years w/out environmental regulation.... a) 6,000 years isn't very long and b) most of that 6,000 years was spent without the technology for uranium mining... or even a reason to mine uranium in the FIRST place!

He's not just an idiot by sane people's logic, he's an idiot by his OWN logic.

[hitchkitty.livejournal.com]

I'll go you one better.

If* the earth is actually far, far older than 6000 years, wouldn't that make the "it's done okay so far" argument stronger?

Oh. That's right. Scientists must be wrong about the age of the earth, or else they might be right about the need to protect what's left of the environment. Absolute right and wrong is what fundamentalists traffic in; they exist in a single-bit binary system.


* "If" is here used to mean "most likely the case and generally accepted as fact by those not in need of emergency rectal craniectomy".

[crysthewolf.livejournal.com]

Right!

Love your definition of the word "if", btw. ;)

[hitchkitty.livejournal.com]

Oh. Duh.

The whole point is that the planet survived for so long with us on it, and per the fundamentalists, that goes back to "In the beginning...".

Though yet again, we as a species have been around for somewhat longer than 6000 years. But there I go again, trying to bring science into it.

From the holy book of Gaiman and Pratchett.

[zellion.livejournal.com]

"Archbishop James Usher (1580-1656) published Annales Veteris et Novi Testamenti in 1654, which suggested that the Heaven and Earth were created in 4004 B.C. One of his aides took the calculation further, and was able to announce triumphantly that the Earth was created on Sunday the 21st of October, 4004 B.C., at exactly 9:00 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh.
This too was incorrect. By almost a quarter of an hour. The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur skeletons was a joke the paleontologists haven't seen yet."

- Good Omens

Seriously though, I believe in God, but why on earth would I care when the earth was created? If you believe in any form of modern Christianity you're taking so much stuff on total faith that trying to "prove" anything with science by figuring out when the world was create is beyond stupid. Now using the facade of religion to try and rationalize the destruction of the environment out of greed? Is despicable.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

Some of my friends and I talked about Sarah Balin the night she announced her resignation. One of my arguments for not liking her was her rejection of evolution. Someone asked why it mattered. This is the perfect example of why it matters. Are you going to believe what your preacher says is true or what thousands of scientists with proof can demonstrate is true? More importantly, what is going to be the basis of your policy?

[liddle-oldman.livejournal.com]

I firmly believe that if we go extinct, it'll largely be from this sort of preliterate magical thinking.

And, sadly, I'm getting more and more convinced that we're pointed straight at extinction.

[phillip2637.livejournal.com]

I hear Dr. Hook, singing:

Sylvia's Mother says, "Sylvia's silly,
Too silly for science or math."

[eleri.livejournal.com]

now I will have that stuck in my head

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

If you're gonna do it, do it right (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4asAOyglCc).

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

I think you're missing the point, Tom. I think phillip2637 was issuing you a challenge. He wants to see you do a filk on this topic, using the tune indicated.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but I already wrote "The Here And Now (http://filkertom-itom.blogspot.com/2006/10/013-here-and-now.html)". And I've told you guys, I don't do challenges anymore. ;)

[dornbeast.livejournal.com]

...the earth is 6,000 years old, and somehow it survived before [we had the technology to wreck the environment, so obviously we don't need] environmental regulation...

...the guy down the street is twenty years old, and somehow he survived before he started taking methamphetamines, so obviously we don't need drug laws...

Yeah, I bet they'd go for that like children go for castor oil.

[valkyrwench.livejournal.com]

Oh, Earth will survive whatever we throw at her. The problem that people aren't seeing is that we're in the process of making things so inhospitable as to leave the survival of mankind in doubt. It's like the dinosaurs - they had their day, and now they're gone. Some day, we'll be gone, too and a new species will eventually take our place. Be kind to our cockroach overlords, for they may inherit the planet when we've destroyed ourselves.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

That is indeed one of the things that always makes me crazy, the notion that we have to "save the planet". The planet isn't in danger; it'll do just fine, unless it's smacked by a world-shattering comet or the sun goes nova. It's those things growing on the surface that are in trouble....

[zibblsnrt.livejournal.com]

One of the annoying things about Ussher's work there is that, at least on its own, it's a pretty good piece of chronology; given what he had to work with piecing together that timeline would be extraordinarily difficult. Even mediocre chronology is hard when you don't have a prior timeline to work with (to say nothing of God only knows how many contradicting dating systems).

The idea of building any kind of modern legislation or policy around it is completely insane, of course, but given what he had to work with at the time he probably took a better shot at figuring out the broad outlines of history than I would've been able to.

I still think Biblical literalism or inerrantism might as well be idolatry, though. :P

[banjoplayinnerd.livejournal.com]

Personally I like the Dalai Lama's comment, something like "If Buddhism conflicts with science, we need to re-examine Buddhism in light of the science." (Sorry, this is a total paraphrase, and the original article I got this from has been removed from Smithsonian Magazine's website.)

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

That's okay. I think even God is shaking His head in disbelief at how some of His children would think this instead of actually using their brains to think.

[mbumby.livejournal.com]

There's a song in there.

[deliciouspear.livejournal.com]

Nevermind the fact taht most people doing those calculation don't know that in the 1300s the pope adjusted the calendar by several years and it's actually 2022 now.

[laurel-potter.livejournal.com]

We get Answers Magazine delivered to our house. I do my best to keep the grandkids from seeing it. Unfortuantly, most of my close relatives believe in that codswallop and voted for McCain.