filkertom: (Default)
[personal profile] filkertom
I've been thinking a lot about this one.

I don't know that I have an answer. But I've got a direction.

If you don't know what the controversy is, well, there's a whole lot of detail to it, but the short form is: Barack Obama's inauguration will feature an invocation by Rick Warren, leader of a California megachurch. Pastor Warren is looked upon by some as being much more open-minded than, say, James Dobson. On the other hand, he is vehemently anti-gay-marriage, and his selection is viewed as a slap in the face to the entire gay community.

Like I said, there's a lot more detail out there, including a number of other positions Pastor Warren has taken that I find at best idiotic and at worst reprehensible. But that's what it boils down to.

From what I can see, Obama is trying to reach out both politically and socially to the other side. And I'm good with that. I've been saying for years that we want to save the country for all Americans, not just the ones who agree with us.

But it does come back to a fundamental problem I have with religious activism: It can't leave other people alone.

Rick Warren worked hard to push Proposition 8 down everybody's throat in California. And now he is working to nullify the 18,000 gay marriages that have taken place there since May.

And nobody, nobody, has come close to convincing me that any of those marriages affect Rick Warren or anybody else in any way besides being Ewww Teh Icky Gay.

My problem with religious activism is that it insists we all have to follow the moral codes of a particular God. Given that separation of church and state is in the freakin' First Amendment of the Constitution, and given that these moral codes tend to be along the lines of These People Are Different And Therefore Bad, you'd think there might be a little more public outcry.

Rick Warren and his church have joined with other forces such as the Church of the Latter Day Saints to deny rights to a bunch of people because they're different from him.

And that, really, is all that matters.

Civil rights laws are supposed to protect people from "the tyranny of the majority". This is a perfect example. Being gay is not a choice. Opponents of gay rights keep saying that it is, as if it will eventually make it true. I feel safe in saying that very few people would choose to be cast out by their families, beaten up by their former friends -- or for that matter, by people who don't know them -- denied rights and protections, jobs and housing, and generally shunned, just because of the gender of those they are physically attracted to.

Obama's campaign for the presidency dealt heavily with symbols -- symbols of hope, of inclusion, of bridging the gaps between us all. He was, and is, verbally very strong in his embracing of gay issues and the gay community.

Rick Warren is a symbol as well... of unthinking divisiveness and bigotry. Of superstition over fact. Of hatred disguised as love.

And I want to tell myself that his five minutes of the inauguration will be over and done with and that'll be that... but I find that I can't.

By having Warren speak at the inauguration -- no matter what he says -- Obama, and our government, will be lending him credibility, making him more "mainstream". Making it more acceptable to be anti-gay.

And that is simply wrong.

I don't know of any politic way that Obama can withdraw the invitation to Pastor Warren. But I think he should. At the very least, he should say: Pastor Warren's position on gay marriage is not acceptable. Like any other marriage, a gay marriage affects no one except the people involved. It's no different from any other marriage. And we can't change the country, save the country, if we keep dividing ourselves into Us and Them.

Thoughts?

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:37 pm (UTC)
ext_68422: (gay support)
From: [identity profile] mimiheart.livejournal.com
*applause*

As for "Is it a Choice?"

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filkertom.livejournal.com
Wonderful!

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Date: 2008-12-21 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caraig.livejournal.com
That's an awesome video. =)

The narrator sounds like he's the "IN A WORLD..." movie trailer guy.

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Date: 2008-12-21 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nagasvoice.livejournal.com
It;s great, will also post, thanks!!

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Date: 2008-12-21 10:15 pm (UTC)
kengr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kengr
That vid is *so* getting snarfed onto my system. :-)

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] selenesue.livejournal.com
Former Governor, now Attorney General Brown is doing his best to nullify Prop. 8, and retain the legality of the existing gay marriages. He may shoot his chances at getting the Governership back but he seems determined.

Obama is not going to withdraw the invitation to Warren, that's just not on the table. Warren is not the only clergy offering a blessing, we can deal with it. Walking on.

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filkertom.livejournal.com
Yeah, I know. Trying to do the same. But I had to say something.

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bayushisan.livejournal.com
Isn't that what's going on though?

Pastor Warren and those who think like him are the "them" to advocates of gay marriage. Keep in mind I'm not taking any side on that particular issue as it's one of those big "I don't know" issues for me. Part of me feels like that, as a Christian myself, I don't have a voice at the table just because I'm a Christian.

I don't know where Pastor Warren stands on every issue but I do know that he's tried to raise awareness about global warming, and AIDs, and that he's worked with feminist organizations to talk about the dangers of addiction to pornagraphy and the potental for the objectification of women there-in. He's taken huge ammounts of heat from other Christians, mainly the Dobson and CBN branches.

I probably wouldn't agree with all of his political views myself but this is the best time for him to speak. Yes there are thousands of people who will disagree with him and where he stands on some issues but I think that's the point. We have to start working towards common solutions despite our disagreements.

Gay marriage is an issue where there's not likely to be any compromise on either side and I can accept that. Like I said it's an "I don't know" issue for me so I tend to stay out of those particular arguments. However on multiple other issues we can come together but the only way to do that is to acknowledge that everyone has a voice at the table and to call people on those issues where we can't come to a common consensus and at least air out what each side thinks and feels.

I'm not sure if i said any of that right. Most of it came as I wrote but I hope we can talk to each other about it as friends.

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Date: 2008-12-21 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filkertom.livejournal.com
Of course we can. :) See, part of the problem I've had, part of the reason I've delayed talking about this here for several days, is that Pastor Warren has done admirable work in the areas of global warming and AIDS, among others. It's the acting to take away rights that gets under my skin. And of course it's not just him.

I don't expect there to be compromise on gay marriage anytime soon. But I'd settle for leaving well enough alone. Again, how is Rick Warren affected by it, that he has to campaign against it so vehemently?

I will be very interested to hear what he has to say at the inauguration.

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] robin-june.livejournal.com
From the quasi-inside-outside, Rick Warren is actually more inclusive (on a relative scale) than other right-wing fundamentalists. He's taken some flak from them for some things (e.g., giving up the Baptist brand name on his Saddleback church to proselytize to the Unchurched, rather than poaching members from other congregations).

Of course, this doesn't negate the fact that persecuting gays is against everything that Jesus Christ stood for, and a true Christian has no business bringing the schoolyard bullying into the grown-up arena.

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Date: 2008-12-21 07:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladystarblade.livejournal.com
To me, it boils down to this. Yes, Warren is anti-gay marriage. Unfortunately, so are a hell of a lot of people in this country. And if we just stay on this merry-go-round of "you-can't-play-because-you-don't-think-the-same-as-me"...it'll just go round and round in circles until we're all sick and dizzy.

Yes, I believe Warren's stance is wrong. But we can't shut him and those like him out of everything. The only way we can change hearts and minds is to be inclusive...not exclusive.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 08:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filkertom.livejournal.com
Yep. Like I said, I don't think there's any way Obama can un-invite him. And Obama has spoken forcefully in favor of gay rights. But I wish Warren wasn't the guy.

Could be worse. Could be Dobson. Or Donohue. Or Wildmon. Or Phelps.
Edited Date: 2008-12-21 08:05 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2008-12-21 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-steep-hill.livejournal.com
Unfortunately, people like Rick Warren are mainstream. Fear of other is mainstream. Exclusion, and the associated bigotry, are old, old tools of human tribal structure, which have been with us for as long as we have been recognizably human.

We are the ones who are not mainstream. Geek/fen/liberal/progressive types are the exception. Per the research of Jonathan Haidt, most people's moral judgment arises from an emotion of disgust, which is then rationalized after the fact. The only exceptions are the modern well-educated liberals who some of the time are able to think through moral questions rationally rather than immediately falling back on emotion and gut instinct.

Frankly, it amazes me that Obama got elected. The man's a geek (and I saw that in the most positive way).

It's unfortunate, and depressing, but it is the world we live in. By including people like Warren, I don't think that Obama is legitimizing Warren. I think Obama is legitimizing himself in the eyes of the very large right-wing religious minority. And that is shrewd politics, if nothing else.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 09:11 pm (UTC)
ext_74: Baron Samadai in cat form (Default)
From: [identity profile] siliconshaman.livejournal.com
I must lack those genes...I've never once run into any kind of human behaviour that caused me to react that way...
I wonder how much of this liberal vs conservative 'morals' thing is actually inherent.

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Date: 2008-12-21 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] holzman.livejournal.com
I'd be less upset about the Rick Warren invitation if not for the Donny McClurkin incident during the capaign. It's not as if Obama can say he didn't realize that making such a choice would be a slap in our faces. I've got no reason to believe at this point that it's "just for five minutes," because I've got every reason to believe that what someone does twice they'll do a third time.

It's not as if there aren't thousands of fundamentalist Chrisitan ministers who haven't made it their lives work to break up LBGT families that he could have invited instead.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 08:41 pm (UTC)
solarbird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] solarbird
Pastor Warren is looked upon by some as being much more open-minded than, say, James Dobson.
The key phrase is "looked upon by some." He himself says that their positions on the social agenda - which is to say, people, like me - are exactly the same. He's just better at talking pleasantly about it.

As I said once before...

Date: 2008-12-21 08:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] smallship1.livejournal.com
See, this is the problem you have when you separate church and state. Instead of one bunch of doctrinaire idiots interfering with your lives, you have two. Let the church be controlled by the state, and the state can keep it in check. :)
Edited Date: 2008-12-21 08:48 pm (UTC)

Re: As I said once before...

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Re: As I said once before...

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Re: As I said once before...

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Re: As I said once before...

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Date: 2008-12-21 09:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jacob-day.livejournal.com
I've heard a lot of people describing Obama as keeping his enemies close - using them in his machinations.

There *are* worse things Warren could be doing with his time than blessing Obama.

And in exchange for the legitimacy Obama gives him, Warren now also has to deal with his own followers seeing him give his blessing to someone who supports gay marriage. As much as some view it as a weakening of Obama - some extreme haters will view it as a weakening of Warren...

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 09:59 pm (UTC)
ext_3294: Tux (raven)
From: [identity profile] technoshaman.livejournal.com
As [livejournal.com profile] solarbird explained it to me yesterday: The (ir)religious (not-)right pick a weak enemy, and hammer them. It makes them look good, and gives them somebody on which to focus their prodigious hate.

Obama, supposedly, is trying to wedge off Warren's followers and weaken the theocrats that have taken over the GOP.

Now, personally, I don't trust Obama as much as some might after the whole FISA thingy. It is arguable that this is code language to the right that "ok, I'm gonna let you get away with some things."

[livejournal.com profile] solarbird also thinks this is too great an honor, and with that I agree. You could put a prominent (but competent) Republican in a key position, you could do any number of things.... but it's called a blessing for a reason, and that kind of energy on who I hope is *my* President? DO NOT WANT.

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Date: 2008-12-21 09:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unclelumpy.livejournal.com
Question 1.
Who is going to be our new President, Barack Obama or Rick Warren?

Question 2.
In whom is magnanimousness a more desirable trait?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joecoustic.livejournal.com
First of all, I completely agree with you.

Second, I do find it intriguing that there seems to be a backlash against Warren from the hard right for actually agreeing to speak. I have no source for this right now, I just remember hearing it the other night. While it does reinforce the idea that the moderate right is the center (something I don't believe or agree with for a minute) at least it's movement - something we haven't seen for awhile.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 10:00 pm (UTC)
ext_3294: Tux (Default)
From: [identity profile] technoshaman.livejournal.com
link to the backlash, please?

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Date: 2008-12-21 09:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocketnaomi.livejournal.com
Speaking as someone who is more than slightly likely to get married in California if they get Prop 8 repealed and let me, I could care less about who does the inaugural invocation. Yes, Prop 8 is heinous. Yes, Warren's activism in support of it is indefensible. This does not mean that I want to waste political capital keeping him and his ilk out of symbolic roles.

Symbols are what smart people throw as a bone to the stupid, to keep them from noticing that you aren't throwing them substance. If Obama wants to throw symbols to Warren and his followers while opposing the discriminatory laws they support -- which he has so far; we'll see what he does in office -- that's just fine with me.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 10:17 pm (UTC)
kayshapero: (Splitting hairs)
From: [personal profile] kayshapero
Depends. Are there other pastors speaking? Are they all of the same position on gay marriage? Is there someone speaking who the anti-gay contingent consider Teh Icky? If so, I'd say it's a wash.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 11:09 pm (UTC)
vik_thor: (Asgard)
From: [personal profile] vik_thor
There does seem to be at least one other Pastor speaking.
Warren doing the invocation, and a Rev Joseph Lowery will be giving the benediction. (His stances, I have not looked into, but he cofounded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, with Martin Luther King.)
Don't know for sure the order they will be done in, but it looks like the invocation would be first, then everything else goes on, then the benediction.

I've heard that Warren is basically anti-sex in general.

As a gay man, I think that the "Gay Movement Leaders" are pushing too hard right now for 'Gay Marriage'.
I would settle for nationwide Domestic Partnerships, which everyone (gay and straight) has access to, and gives all the IRS benefits, etc. Let the word wedding be used by the churches, I don't care. If church X doesn't want to solemnize my vows with my partner, I DON'T CARE.
(sorry)

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Or to put it another way...

Date: 2008-12-21 10:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unclelumpy.livejournal.com
How do we expect Obama to heal the rift with the Muslim World if he's not even willing to compromise with the religious fanatics in our OWN country?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-21 11:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alverant.livejournal.com
I think Obama realizes that he can't do it alone. We're not going to be able to fix this country if the other half has to be dragged along kicking and screaming. Giving Warren this honor is a way to extend a hand and try to bring more people into the center. And if Warren doesn't use this as a chance to preach about homosexuals, then I don't see the harm.

I hate to have to point this out Tom, but having Warren speak at a ceremony then go back to his usual life the next day harms no one. Just as gay marriage doesn't hurt straight marriages, giving this guy his 5 minutes of fame won't hurt the gay marriage cause. This whole thing will be forgotten about within a few weeks of the ceremony and will only come up in passing comment by Olberman.

I don't like the guy for his stand on gay marriage, but I don't see this as being anything more than a demonstration of Obama working with people he disagrees with. I think that, showing that we're in this together, will do more good long term than shunning a man over one issue.

Now if Warren decides to usurp the speech to condemn gay marriages, then I take back what I said and will tell Obama he made a BIG mistake.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-22 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filkertom.livejournal.com
No reason to hate pointing it out -- I've been operating on exactly that point for the past few days, and trying to reconcile it in my head and heart. I finally couldn't. But I'd love it if it worked out that way. If he just does an invocation, and doesn't drag any controversial topic into it, then it's a nice line on his resume and not much more. Here's hoping.

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Date: 2008-12-22 12:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] denali1.livejournal.com
Steven Brust had an interesting post on this subject, which basically says Warren is the least of our problems. I wasn't exactly sure how I felt about it, so I decided I should just not respond and read.

The post can be seen at http://skzbrust.livejournal.com/118806.html

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-22 12:53 am (UTC)
poltr1: (devo)
From: [personal profile] poltr1
Given that separation of church and state is in the freakin' First Amendment of the Constitution...

Really? Nowhere in the Constitution are those 5 words listed. The idea of SOCAS came from one of Thomas Jefferson's writings.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-22 02:37 am (UTC)
jenrose: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jenrose
Dude. Not as "separation of church and state"... but to quote my husband, "The Establishment Clause is quite clear."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_of_religion

Making a law solely based on religious principles? Violates the establishment clause.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-22 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madrona.livejournal.com
I'm all for religious activism...when it focuses on the actual big deal stuff. For example, the Quaker-run anti-violence organizations.

Oh, how did I put this?

You know, it may be possible that gayness really is some kind of problem for God. But on the scale of things Jesus vocally took issue with? When we live in a world where buttsex is our biggest problem, there will be no war, no poverty, no violence or exploitation or illness or despair. Each town will have a single police officer who will envy the Maytag repairman his life of excitement and danger.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-22 07:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dan-ad-nauseam.livejournal.com
I don't mind Obama reaching out to traditional religion, but is Warren the best he could do?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-12-22 05:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lariss.livejournal.com
I keep hearing the above statement in different tones and hues. Here's my thought,"Maybe, maybe not. But as long as Obama goes on to serve well and justly from the executive office, wouldn't he do well to have those of us who voted for him avoid breaking him down on small/nipicky issues? Honestly, the poor man is laready walking into a stirred up nest of vipers, wasps and rabid wolverines. IF he begins to show evidence of a Bushesque theocracy or facist state, then we should absolutely shred him and remove him (as we ought to have done with Bush), but until then, we need to try to be + suport and - on the unnecessary criticisms. Doesn't mean you can't write/call and make your stand ont he issue known..."

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