Family Values

[filkertom]

huskiebear aims us to a fascinating hypothesis about family values, voting patterns, and internet savvy. The one-sentence summation: "In red America, families form adults; in blue America, adults form families."

Thoughts?

Comments

[madfilkentist]

Speaking of voting, have you been writing ad copy for the California Democratic Party?

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

The review contains some shocking unspoken assumptions. Take this one:

True, young people often make poor marital choices. But that, too, was usually all right, at least from society's point of view, because divorce was stigmatized and fairly hard to get. Even a flawed marriage was likely to be a stable one.

It's okay if you choose to marry the wrong person--because you can never undo it. No matter how miserable, how loveless, how downright abusive a marriage turns out to be, it's okay--because you're STUCK in that marriage. Isn't it wonderful?

The unspoken assumption here is: it is better to have people ruin their lives with bad marriages than to permit them the solution of divorce.

Here it is again:

Women stream into the workforce and become more economically independent -- a good thing, but with the side effect of contributing to a much higher divorce rate.

Here again is the unspoken assumption that for specifically a woman to be trapped in a marriage that is hateful to her is better than for her to be economically free to divorce.

I mean, is that a weird, sick view of marriage, or what?

And this part:

Blue norms are well adapted to the Information Age. They encourage late family formation and advanced education. They produce prosperous parents with graduate degrees, low divorce rates, and one or two over-protected children.

Of course our norms are well adapted to the current age--that's part of being a reality based community; our norms *result* from the current age. And I wouldn't describe our kids as "over-protected." Unless the writer was using it to mean "not disadvantaged" which I would have to say is quite correct--and frankly what every loving and responsible parent should WANT for their child.

Given the weird unspoken assumptions about marriage in this review, I would say that the reviewers were probably conservative. Which makes it all the more surpising that they could bring themselves to agree with the point of the book, which is that Red America cultural norms are bad for families. Maybe these conservatives are ones to keep an eye on, as not quite a divorced from reality as others.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

My impression was that they were looking at the raw numbers and counting the divorces. A bad marriage is still technically a marriage and a good divorce is still a divorce. I think they would have to do that otherwise they would be placing a value judgement on each marriage and divorce. They couldn't say "Well she abused him so their divorce was a good moral thing" or "They're only staying married because of his money so their marriage is not a moral thing."

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

I think part of their point about divorce was that, if the young red state guy is allowed to escape all the consequences that he dumps on the girl, then they as a couple cannot forced by one another in a supportive system to finally grow up.
She'll grow up, trying to raise kids as best she can, willynilly.
His most practical option for a decent survival is to sell his body to the military, and that's where he will soon learn that blue state technical expertise is probably the only way upward.
Of course they're not mentioning the spousal abuse or deaths that result from that system, but then, neither do most conservatives.
If you value high tech innovation and creating new industries, then you are horrified by this.
I view it as a huge waste of HR resources.
In a blue state system, every brain matters and must be developed to remain competitive. A much tougher system, in many ways. Ay meritocracy must have some system for dealing with those who fail. Folks who can't compete at that level are dropped into slots like maintenance that pay so poorly you end up with Walmart employees who have to have food stamps and only visit the ER for their health care.

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the book and so I could be wrong, but I don't think those are the reviewer's assumptions -- or the authors'. I got the impression the reviewer was summarizing the authors' conclusions about the attitudes and assumptions of the populations they had studied.

But I could be wrong.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

That's what I got from it as well. The authors were describing the reasons that those things were thought to be okay, or even a social advantage, in Red America -- not saying that they themselves agreed. It's an outdated view everywhere else, but I've encountered people who still think that way.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

I don't know... I know MANY families at my school with grad degrees, low divorce rate, etc, highly professional people, and their kids are horrible brats with no concept of self discipline, or responsibility, because they are so very overprotected... A grad degree does NOT make you a good parent.

It makes you educated, but it does not automatically mean you know what another person needs to be loved and well adjusted.

Even parenting "experts" make mistakes.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

I don't think you've read it correctly. I think they're describing the common views at the times they're talking about - which are, yes, conservative (and thus not reality-based, by and large) views.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

A very interesting and believable hypothesis. I have to wonder how many conservatives were or had "accidents" who think their way should be the norm. I seem to recall hearing Ron and Nancy Reagan "had" to get married. Conservatives won't like this article because it throws a wrench in their "personal responsibility" mantra and it shows that liberals are more responsible when it comes to families than conservatives.

On a side note, I got an offer today! I start my new job on Monday. Wish me luck.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Good luck, indeed.

Well, in 2 of 3 cases

[capplor.livejournal.com]

of people in my generation that I absolutely know of, the first baby was about 6 months after the wedding. Actually, since the one lady was widowed & remarried (AGAIN with the baby rather a short time later, IIRC) that would be 3 of 4.

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting. Problem is, of course, we can't all be blue-state PhDs, although we could set a higher value on individual lives than does those so-called family values where popping kids early and indiscriminately is expected.
No wonder folks whose future is looking increasingly impoverished are feeling tribal, frantic, and spiraling off into weird conspiracy theories of all kinds. I would also expect increasingly wild millennial-type nutjob religious cults. I understand those are an inadvertent side-effect to absorb the losers in competitive merit-based social status system, such as Chinese Empire bureaucratic testing. One article I read mentioned this happening in Egyptian Alexandria during the Ptolemiac dynasty, just after Alexander the Great.
Now, what to *do* about it must involve creating jobs at an educational level that is attainable for these sorts of families, with an income that is also sustainable. Anything else results in instability.

[dornbeast.livejournal.com]

what to *do* about it must involve creating jobs at an educational level that is attainable for these sorts of families

That's part of the solution, certainly. Another part of it may be finding ways to get people the education that they need to find a better job. (Do I know how to do this? Not a damn clue.)

I think there should be more to the solution than what has been mentioned so far, but I have no idea what it is, and even less of an idea of how to do it.

That explains a lot, really

[capplor.livejournal.com]

I married for the first time after 30. I have noticed & commented before that I wasn't really being treated as an adult by my family until after marrying. (Despite being a military veteran, and completely self supporting, and a property owner for over 15 years.

(I'm still annoyed at getting a door knocker with his last name on it. It's the comment "We always buy our children a door knocker FOR THEIR FIRST HOUSE)

Re: That explains a lot, really

[kayshapero]

Sometimes even getting married and producing offspring doesn't help - we kids garnered much amusement every time my folks would take us back east to Kentucky to see the zoo relatives, and Grandma promptly reduced poor Dad to a mischievous 12 year old.

Sigh...

[robgonzo.livejournal.com]

Check out this graphic on left vs. right. I've always found it really interesting.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25541021@N00/4030282066/

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

That would certainly explain the low level of functionality in Red state families.

Re: Well...

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

The simple difference in age at marriage and first birth would create issues for red state families. They just don't have the experience and skill levels at everyday life (banking, budgeting, choosing pririties, etc.) that older blue state parents bring to the cradle. However, that is not to say that older parents will be better ones. They may be tired and disinclined to make an effort, compared to younger parents willing to run as hard as it takes.

Re: Well...

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

I've long been an advocate of a high school course on Life Skills (banking, budgeting, choosing priorities, cooking, cleaning, resumé writing, simple bicycle and auto maintenance and maybe repair, basics of child care, etc). Would've helped me a lot....

Re: Well...

[batyatoon]

They should ABSOLUTELY do this.

Re: Well...

[terriwells.livejournal.com]

They did this kind of thing in the old days, sort of. The girls got to take "home economics" in high school and the guys got to take "shop." Nowadays, though, if they offer it, they'd have to teach all of the skills to boys and girls -- which would be a good thing.

Funny thing is, one of the most useful classes I learned in high school was probably meant for landing a secretarial (read: low-paying female) job: typing. The closest I ever got to being a secretary was faculty assistant at Duke University School of Law for about eight months, but I use the skill every day in my current job...as a writer/editor. I may not be an executive, but I *am* a knowledge worker...and I'm nobody's office assistant. (Not that there's anything wrong with being a secretary, mind you; it's just not the way I work).

Re: Well...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

There are no guarantees to success in family (or anything else). There are things that raise or lower the odds, though. It is possible to raise young people so that they have an adult complement of skills by the time they hit puberty, making a solid foundation for experience to build upon; but few people do that these days. I've seen several articles pointing out that rates of divorce, domestic violence, child abuse, teen pregnancy, etc. are higher in Red states than Blue states. That suggests the "family values" crowd doesn't actually do very well with family life. Considering their widespread efforts to break up other people's families -- gay families, immigrant families, bigoted-flavor-of-the-day families -- I'm not surprised that they are low on the skills required for actually making a family function.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

With all due respect to the authors, you cannot take entire states and consider them red and blue. Within even Massachusetts, you have a great deal of difference between the urban counties around Boston, the central valley of the Connecticut, and Western Massachusetts. In Illinois, there's a world of difference between the Blue of Cook County and the increasing spread of Red as you move away from Chicago.

See the attached map from 2008, for example....

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://geochristian.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/counties2008.png&imgrefurl=http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/red-counties-blue-counties/&h=312&w=512&sz=130&tbnid=lhFX5PMG813ArM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3D2008%2Bred%2Band%2Bblue%2Bcounties&usg=__94MYC6k6Uwu2oAQCBopGANpspE8=&ei=cQrlS-u0DY7iNaOzjMQK&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CCcQ9QEwBA

I'd be willing to bet that if you looked at the social composition of states on the County level, you'd end up with a statistical spread that was much closer to one's intuition on divorce, marriage, and other social issues.

Tom

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

Crap, that's not the map that I wanted to link to and it's effin' late.

Go down to the bottom of the page and click on the link that says "2008 map is from here". It'll give you a much better look at the spread of counties.

In reality, the counties are probably a shade redder than in the 2008 map, since there was a lot of voters in the Presidential election who crossed over to vote for Obama who are considerably more centrist than Democrat.

Tom