Second Circuit Court Strikes Down FCC Indecency Rules

[filkertom]

"Unconstitutionally vague". The comments to the entry contain a link to Carlin's "Seven Words" routine, of course. :)

How do you feel about swearing? Obviously, I do it all the fuckin' time. Although I do tone it down around kids. Except sometimes in concert, where I don't give a shit. Hi, Mom!

But, seriously. Do you think society is made worse by use of certain words? Or a certain quantity of certain words? And, if so, what words, and why? How about nudity, full or partial, and/or sexual acts? How about all the violence on TV, in all its myriad forms? Should that be subject to greater scrutiny?

Comments

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

I don't dislike swear words, although I seldom use more than the mild end of the spectrum myself... just a habit I never really picked up. What I do dislike is the tendency to substitute swear words for more precise language in a wide variety of contexts. I'd rather hear a series of accurate adjectives telling me exactly what someone doesn't like about a thing than just hear a sequence of curses whose literal meanings are so far removed from the context in which they're being used that all I can tell from the sentence is that the person speaking is highly annoyed an an unknown thing for an unknown reason.

[moshez.livejournal.com]

Um, swear words, as all words, can be used to increase comprehensibility or to decrease it. I doubt you find "He's fucking stupid", "They're pissing me off" or "I don't give a shit about this" less accurate in their semantics than "He's really stupid", "They're annoying me" or "I don't really care about this". "Fucking A'!" is equally accurate as, and terser than, "I completely agree, and I think it's pretty neat."

It's true, most people are careless with their usage of words. This is equally true for those who swear and for those who try their best to avoid it.

[Avoiding swearing around kids, specifically, is an exception. There's a good reason for it: kids are not socially subtle enough to distinguish the circumstances in which it would lead to social awkwardness. Getting them to use less swear words in general is a hack until they develop the social skills to apply the words in the correct circumstances, and only those.]

[moshez.livejournal.com]

The whole concept is dirty words is kind of ridiculous, if you really think about it.

I mean, there's supposed to be a difference between saying "cock" and "penis", but in whose eyes? Why is it OK to say "shut the frak up" but not "shut the fuck up"? Are words truly mystical, with the power to change destinies? I mean, we all know what "frak" is really supposed to be, so we're left with the conclusion that it's better because somehow it fools a cosmic censor :)

I tend to respect other people's feelings, even if they're irrational, in their "domains" so if a person asks me (even implicitly) not to swear when I'm in his home or in her livejournal, I do so. When I think it will cause people to close their minds to what I have to say, I avoid swearing. But otherwise? I don't give a flying fuck!

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

I should add that, in some cases, what people consider a swear word is extremely telling about their views of other matters.

The whole point of using swear words is that they are considered, by the speaker, to have a certain visceral impact. They're symbolizing an intense emotional state, and they're intended to evoke one. "Shut the fuck up" is deliberately more intense a demand than "shut up." There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but it does lead to some interesting observations about what is considered to have emotional impact worthy of use in such situations.

Someone whose use of swear words is almost entirely in the religious/profane category, I'm inclined to think is at least superstitiously religious on some level they may not think about often. They may not be devout, often aren't, but they aren't entirely sure there's nothing out there either. Someone whose use of swear words is almost entirely based on the subcategory of sexual swear words which relate to anal or oral sexual penetration, I'm going to suspect of being some degree of homophobe, especially if the speaker is a man and they usually address such comments to other men. Not necessarily a hater, just someone whom the concept of that kind of sex between men makes pretty uncomfortable to think about.

A man whose most common swear words are "bitch" and "cunt" probably has a serious enough case of misogyny that I am inclined to avoid him.

Interestingly, I've found that most people I know who use the word 'fuck' freely and frequently are also pretty well-grounded about sex. They consider it important, but they aren't weird about it. I'm not sure what that indicates; possibly just that I know some odd people.

[sdelmonte]

Personally, I live in the 50s. I don't swear and don't really care for such things. It comes from both my upbringing and my interpretation of how I ought to behave as a devout person. Swears don't really offend me since they don't really have the impact they used to, but I wouldn't be unhappy if I never heard one again.

But I would never tell anyone not to use them. The funny thing is that a lot of people, knowing my personal preferences, try not to use them around me or apologize. And given that some of these friends would make a sailor blush, I appreciate the effort a lot. But they don't have to.

All that said, I haven't been unhappy that the FCC regulates such things. I don't expect to hear a lot more in the way of cursing if this decision holds up, though, since enough people would be offended to make self-censorship worth the networks' while. I would just ask for warnings. (Someday, when I am in the right mood, I will watch Deadwood, knowing what I am getting into.)

[skylarker.livejournal.com]

Words have the power to evoke reactions in people. Depending on context I can find sexually suggestive words, like the F word threatening or at least disturbing. Imagine if people used 'castration' as a common cuss word. Even if sympathetic to the frustrations or anger behind the cussing it might strike you as disturbing.

[batyatoon]

I think I may start.

"I have had it with these castrating snakes on this castrating plane!"

... It needs work.

[chaosdancer.livejournal.com]

Love the Carlin but I wish someone would post a link to the original Seven Words. I haven't heard that in so long! Oh, and freedom of speech, yay! Let's use it wisely and precisely. :)

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

You mean, this one? (http://www.lyricsbox.com/george-carlin-lyrics-the-seven-words-you-can-never-say-on-tv-268qwb7.html)

[siliconshaman.livejournal.com]

Wait... if the FCC's rules have been struck down, then presumably they no longer apply?

Does this mean that currently the networks can broadcast any obscenity laden POS they like?!

Oh, and anyone that thinks you should at least tone down the language around kids clearly has never hung out around any... Sure, obscenities usage should be limited, because they lose their impact upon repetition. [go listen to some builders, where every other word would be banned under the FCC. You get used to it and after a bit, don't even notice.]

As for nudity and sex.... Seriously, who cares nowadays. I mean, when street clothes are the next best thing to nudity, it kinda loses it's impact..and it's appeal. Seriously, some folks should have a restraining order forcing them to stay clothed, [and I'm speaking as one who knows he doesn't look good naked.] Keeping sex private is just good manners.. it's meant to be intimate, not public. [although I guess intimate could include an entire room full of people depending on the party.]

Meh, people should just stop getting bent out of shape over natural stuff. It happens, so what. It's like being pissed about the weather.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

So, you "seriously" support imposing second-class citizenship on people you don't think have pretty bodies.

I'll just stop right now before I have apoplexy.

[morpheus0013.livejournal.com]

I think swearing comes under the heading of manners. As such, there are times when it's inappropriate, but nothing wrong with it in and of itself.

As such: what you say, where you say it, and what words you use indicate your level of respect for those around you and your willingness to understand that you aren't the only fucking person in the world. =P

I spent 10 years learning how to swear

[capplor.livejournal.com]

mostly to fit in as much as possible in the military, then spent ::ahem:: many years trying to cut it out (like, as soon as I got pregnant) to be a good example to my kids. I was less than perfectly successful in the second case.

Mostly I just do an "Airplane" -like translation when I hear that stuff, and it usually just means "golly" or something.

[zianuray.livejournal.com]

I simply do not grasp the concept of obscenity (or blasphemy, for that matter).

I have taught myself that there are certain times that I should not use certain words because I will get in trouble, but that's far from understanding. And yes, this includes social situations, etc., not just work. I do, however, try to choose my words well for impact and for descriptive power as pocketnaomi and moshez mentioned.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

Government has absolutely no business dictating standards of public decency. Freedom of speech is meaningless if you're only free to say things that don't annoy a government censor.

Censoring certain words on broadcast media is mainly justified by appealing to the need to protect children, but it's actually driven by the fact that those words offend some adults who want to pretend that their children don't already know them. Anyone who actually wanted to protect children wouldn't allow them to be subjected to the industrial mind-control that we call advertising.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

After a certain point (determnined by each individual), too much swearing IS a form of violence. I have trouble watching Kevin Smith movies for exactly this reason. I have avoided Deadwood for this reason. I always feel as if my ears have been assaulted.

I'm not afraid to say fuck in mixed company (I am an erotica writer, after all), but I generally use it in the literal sense. "Why do we like romance? Because everybody fucks, let's get to brass tacks here."

Not to say I'm not capable of some truly lengthy and loud swearing sessions, but I am trying to be less casual about it.

[moshez.livejournal.com]

I take *serious* offense at equating violence and "too much" swearing. Violence is *always* wrong (except to stop more violence, etc.) Speech is *never* supposed to be "wrong" (that's what free speech is all about -- I can go about saying whatever I want). They are as far from each other as possible.

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

I think, for myself, that swearing is an admission of failure: I swear when I am too lazy or too angry to think of a form of words that would more precisely express what I am trying to say. Swear words get across that I am upset, certainly, but how relevant is that? Hardly ever to any significant degree, and I should be able to make that clear in a more imaginative way.

I observed, during adolescence and early adulthood, that the incidence of swearing among the people in whose circles I moved (including my parents and my contemporaries) increased commensurately with the incidence of swearing on television. I have no comment to offer on this, beyond that if it is an increase in freedom it's not a very significant or worthwhile one, and it seems to me that freedoms are as variable in quality and value as anything else. I would rather have seen more freedom of discussion in other areas which are still tending to lag behind. In other words, if it's a triumph for the advocates of freedom it seems to me it's a rather pathetic one.

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

I won't use racial epithets except to describe them or if quoting someone. Even then, I'll generally asterisk them in writing.

I try to avoid specific words that mock handicaps ("spaz", for example).

I'm not fond of words that are considered insulting because they refer specifically to women's genitals ("cunt", "pussy", and "douchebag" being among the most common).

I'm more likely to use "bitch" as a verb ("quit'cher bitchin'") than as an adjective or predicate nominative ("she's bitchy" or "she's a bitch").

I try to moderate my language based on my audience -- I don't swear at all around my in-laws, for example, and I try to keep it to the level of an occasional "damn" at work.

[Userpic is because it's relevant to the conversation, not directed at you!]

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Didn't think it was. :) I'd not seen that before -- hee hee.

[his-spiffyness.livejournal.com]

I think Douglas Adams was quite right and "Belgium" really should enter the lexicon of swearing.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Honestly? Yes, I do think that the degredation of our societies ideals about language and such has effected society negatively. Not because the words themselves are so OMG EBIL, but because it has increased our belief that it isn't wrong to say or do what we want. Societies function best when people temper what they do based on other peoples needs.

Now, personally, I feel that should be a voluntary thing, that it is not the government or any governmental entity's job to enforce decency standards. We as a people are responsible for that. Media entities are responsible for that, as are game designers and such. You have a right to say anything you wish to say. You also have a responsibility to think of others when you act.

[birder2.livejournal.com]

Swearing: it's sort of what you are used to. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family where profanity of any description was literally unheard of. I learned a minimal amount in college, I suppose, though I don't really remember it. Then one of the labs I worked in had people who swore regularly and loudly and I picked it up to the point where it became natural and I had a hard time censoring my speech around my family. These days when I am angry or upset, I do use vocabulary that would not pass muster in polite society--I try to remember not to say "holy fucking shit!" around kids at the nature center.
If a guy can't refer to a female in a non-derogatory fashion, no matter what the specific words used, he's not anybody I'd want to be part of MY society. I guess the gender-reverse would apply as well, although I've never encountered a female who couldn't refer to males without using what is generally regarded as bad language.

[dan-ad-nauseam.livejournal.com]

About time. Considering that some of the cases involved the use of profanity in an obviously political context.

[archiver-tim.livejournal.com]

Oh Smurf! What the Smurf is this Smurfing world coming to?

[nimitzbrood.livejournal.com]

I take a lot of heat for swearing around people but frankly I see it like this...

If you attach any importance to NOT using these words then people will focus on them. Children among others are absolutely known for doing this. They see adults avoiding certain words and they start to focus a significant amount of effort trying to understand why and thus using the words to see what results they get.

If you use the words where appropriate and not attach any importance to them then kids eventually see them as just another word AND they get a sense for when those words should be used and shouldn't be used. Yeah you're going to get the occasional misuse but for the most part they catch on pretty quickly.

And really the same goes for a lot of other things that most societies have "buttons" on. The less we make a fuss about these things the less they are focused on by younger people. That makes it _easier_ to explain things to them because they don't develop a button about them either positive or negative.

Just my $.02 worth... :-)

[alverant.livejournal.com]

I like to reserve my swearing for when I REALLY mean it. If it's used too often, then it loose meaning.

[warinbear.livejournal.com]

This echoes my policy and my reasoning as well. I refer to use of profanity as 'strong language', and overuse dilutes its strength.

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

I've said it before, and I'll keep on saying it until they're nothing more than a footnote in history: "Fuck the fucking fuckers at the fucking FCC."

[fredhuggins.livejournal.com]

See, THIS is how I've tried to reach common ground with the tea partiers. I want smaller government too! DESTROY THE GODDAMN FCC!!!

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

I think swearing is unoriginal. There are so many wonderful words that can be used...why resort to "fuck"?

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

Why the fuck not?

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

"Nigger" and "faggot".

I'd rather see them used less, or used SO much they lose all impact.

[ldyerzsie.livejournal.com]

But "faggot" is a perfectly acceptable word. Tolkien uses it a lot and it has a real meaning. Like "gay" has a real meaning. And today I am gay, as in its REAL meaning. And I've used faggots. They're really handy for lighting fires. It's too bad that some words get co-opted and turned into bad things when they didn't start that way.

[hvideo.livejournal.com]

It's quite rare for me to swear. I grew up in a family that didn't use such language - period. When exposed to such outside the family, the words carried a very dramatic impact.

When I went off to college, however, they were in very frequent use. I became de-sensitized to them and even used them myself. All they really stood for was "some unspecified amount of emphasis" 99% of the time. When I went back to family situations, it was effortless to slip back into "these words are NEVER used".

Once out of college it was more of a middle ground. Swear words weren't used nearly as often as they had been in college, and my "de-sensitized" reaction to them was enough to pretty much ignore them. Since it was clearly socially acceptable to use a certain amount of swearing (which varied with different groups of people), I no longer had the "don't EVER use those words" filter on. But as with Sergeant Zim in Starship Troopers, I save it for VERY special occasions. So if you know me and you hear me swearing, you know I am EXTREMELY upset about something. In college the "intensifier" aspect of swearing might have averaged out to be 2 times the intensity of the same sentence without the swear words. In post college environments it might have averaged 8 times the intensity. And if I use it, it's probably 32+ times the intensity. But if someone hearing me doesn't know me and they use swear words a lot themselves, it may only come across to them as a 2 times intensifier. Without a set "community standard", the chance of not communicating accurately is fairly high.

I'm pretty relaxed around nudity, either my own or others. Much depends on context, of course. In a "clothing optional" facility they very much downplay sexual aspects. OTOH, a strip club plays that angle to the hilt. Neither situation offends me, and as long as adults know what to expect they can make their own choices.

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

Mouth like a sewer rat, I'm afraid. On bad days I sound like Dexter Morgan's sister. (I try to clean it up a bit for work -- I've been known to snarl, "Oh, bother!" or "Son of a rat's bum!" but I've also been cautioned a time or two for going nautical.)

Some shows would definitely be better for full-frontal profanity -- the rednecks in Supernatural (CW) sound ridiculous saying things like "You're c-blocking me, dude."

I've always thought of profanity as the cayenne pepper in the well-stocked larder of the English language when it comes to writing or reading it. A touch here and there adds spice to the whole dish -- but add too much and all you taste is the fire.

And from certain writers it's charmless adolescence -- "Lookie, I'm a growed-up, I can cuss, whee!!" Ask me how much I loathed that version of PARSIFAL that came out in the 70s, where every other word was either "fuck" or a prolonged description of excretory functions.