On This 14th Amendment Repeal Bullshit

[filkertom]

Jon Stewart rips 'em a new one.

Comments

[ailsaek.livejournal.com]

People are disgusting sometimes. I need to go searching about teh intarwebz to find some links for people being awesome.

[mimiheart.livejournal.com]

Go read today's Cakewrecks. It has Unicorn Poop.

[lizziecrowe.livejournal.com]

I am so amazingly SICK of this. These people are playing on the most ignorant and the most violent of the lowest education bracket in the nation because they're the only ones who'll BUY this crap. This is frighteningly ridiculous.

[mouser.livejournal.com]

If a parent is here illegally, then the child is not a citizen?

So, if my great-grand parents came here illegally, my grand mother wasn't a citizen.

Then neither was my mother.

Then neither am I.


Boy, they sure fled Nazi Germany for no reason then!

[shockwave77598.livejournal.com]

The main strength of our republic is that the constitution is a changing, evolving document. If enough public support can be whipped up to add to the Law, then it is the law. The 18th amendment comes to mind. And when the law turns out to be craptastic, (again the 18th) then the people can revoke it with another amendment.

This is because we have no way of knowing what perils and problems the nation will face in the future. And while I personally don't think partial repeal of the 14th amendment is a good way to go about it, they are welcome to try. And they are welcome to look like fools when they fall flat on their faces as well. The law needs to be changable by the people. And alas, nothing says that the people are always rational -- patriot act anyone? But when the law ceases to be adaptable, then it ceases to be OUR law and becomes a tyrant made of paper.

The logical solution is to say that the kid is a citizen and may stay, but ma and pa have to go back to their country and take their little US citizen back with them. The kid can return when he's not a minor anymore. There, problem solved.

[skunktaur.livejournal.com]

That presents a problem if the country of origin won't allow a US Citizen to enter. And it will play hell with any services the parents want for their child that won't be available to a citizen of the current residence.

Looks to me that the 14th is a bit leaky with regards to people specifically going to the US to have a kid there and to make sure that they get to stay there, but there's no graceful way of 'fixing' it, at all.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

This is the dangers of a lack of a federal government and no law enforcement above a county level. You'll have instances that are little more than mob rule. Changing the 14th is big in same parts of the country that like blaming immigrants for their problems.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

No, no, no--it's no *government* above county level, with minimum police presence.

If there is neither government nor cops, there's nothing to prevent folks who are getting a raw deal from their locals from moving to another jurisdiction where people like them.

Right?

By the way, I'm going to list the incidents of hateful, bigoted speech in this discussion.

So far, we have:

"...the most ignorant and the most violent of the lowest education bracket in the nation because they're the only ones who'll BUY this crap." from lizziecrowe, assuming that because someone does not have a high-school or college diploma, they are more prone to non-logical arguments.

I'd like to see some detailed proof that there's an anti-correlation between education and gullibility, please.

Taffy plays the race card:

"I, as a brown person whose forbears settled northern New Mexico in 1598, am scared shitless for everyone who doesn't have a teabag dangling from their nethers."

This statement uses his/her race to attempt to increase the validity of their argument. It also implies once again that the Tea Party is racist, even though the New York Times itself *apologized* for claiming that the TP demonstrators used racial epithets during the Health Care Debate. Vice-President Biden himself even made a statement that the TP is not racists. If their public enemies can admit that they're not racist, then your statement reduces to unjustified venom.


Why am I doing this?

When I joined fandom forty years ago, I was overjoyed to find a group of intelligent, open-minded individuals who were willing to look at both sides of an argument and extrapolate it to its logical conclusion. Science was not a fetish, government was seen as an object of mistrust, (not as a necessary protector), and logic, not emotion was seen as the key to winning arguments.

Now, when the situation has deteriorated to the point where the amount of what, if directed towards minorities, women, or gays would be considered hate speech is bandied about as a matter of pride, I say it's time for me to no longer be silent.

Fandom, collectively, is making me ashamed as a Science-fiction reader, author, and fan. Time to return to reason, rather than our glands.

Tom Trumpinski

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Tom, you're a good friend. And I really don't have the time to tear this apart bit by bit.

But your constant bashing of all government (I'm glad you're in a situation where you don't think you need it, but, bruthah, that ain't all of us), your frankly startling thought that there needs to be more official proof between education level and gullibility when we see its effects in evidence every single day (oh, and, if you want evidence, start here (political education level gullibility)), and your implication that some of my commenters are bigoted and hateful by invoking their own race, is beginning to bother me.

(Tea Party racism? Maybe (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/20/politics/main6694191.shtml).)

At the very least, enough of the comments about racism. If somebody calls somebody else an ethnic of some type, that's my problem, and I'll deal with it. But you doing so is both distraction from the main topic and insult to my other friends. End it, please.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

First of all, thanks for replying in a calm, rational manner.

Your education link if broken, but even if it wasn't, I could give the counter-argument of a majority of the non-science, but college-educated, religiously believing in "anthopogenic global warming" in the face of faulty data and increasing evidence to the contrary as well as comparing those who don't believe in it to holocaust deniers.

I do not bash all government. I believe that the smaller the unit, the more likely that its benefits will outweigh it dangers. I believe that the United States government, in its present form, is an entity with a lifetime smaller than our own is likely to be and it would be a mistake for its citizens to become too dependent on it. If I was unclear on this, I apologize. Now that I have said it, I don't feel that I need to keep repeating it over and over again.

I will refrain from calling out any more posters in here on racist issues--you're right, it is up to you to police this. As a white male, I would like to respectfully request that you and your posters refrain from making disparaging comments about me, too, as a member of this ethnicity and gender.

I hope that this clears up any disagreement. I consider you a respected friend and (usually) enjoy my place among those who read and post on this blog.

Tom T

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Appreciated, ace. And here's a fixed link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=VH4&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=education+level+gullibility&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) (it's a Google search for, unsurprisingly, "education level gullibility").

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

Couldn't find anything in there--link's still too general I think.

I've got a few minutes, I'll go see if I can find any evidence in either direction in a sociology, psych, or educational journal.

Tom

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

Nothing either way, for general gullibility. I spent an hour all over the place.

There are, however, a couple of papers with a correlation between religious skepticism and level of education in the United States. I would hesitate to draw too firm a conclusion from that because of selection effects--either those with the firmest religious beliefs having less of a tendency to go to college or there being a correlation with non-neurotypical wiring (the kind of near-Aspergers types that excel in some math and science) being less prone to "transcendental epiphanies" of the types which are seen in religious conversions would skew the data.

Tom

[skemono.livejournal.com]

but college-educated, religiously believing in "anthopogenic global warming"

Oh no! Educated people believe in vastly-supported scientific theories! Those dunces!

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

There is little doubt from anyone that the world is getting warmer. We are in the middle of an Interstitial between two Ice Ages.

The debate, which is still active within the scientific community, is whether or not "It is possible to measure the contribution of humanity to this increase in warmth" and if it is possible, "What is it?"

Interestingly enough, the further one gets from chemisty, astronomy, and physics, the more sure the scientists get that warming is antropogenic.

Tom

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

I do not bash all government. I believe that the smaller the unit, the more likely that its benefits will outweigh it dangers.

I'm sure the tribal leaders in Somalia concur.

[stevemb.livejournal.com]

""...the most ignorant and the most violent of the lowest education bracket in the nation because they're the only ones who'll BUY this crap." from lizziecrowe, assuming that because someone does not have a high-school or college diploma, they are more prone to non-logical arguments."

Er, no; that's the assumption you are making an reading into the statement. Someone can have a drawer full of fancy diplomas and still be part of the "most ignorant... lowest education bracket".

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to further comment on this, since Tom asked me to, however, I need to reply to this.

Your interpretation is not what those words mean, by any stretch of the imagination. If the original poster was referring to tenured college professors, then that's what should have been said.

Tom

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

"...the most ignorant and the most violent of the lowest education bracket in the nation because they're the only ones who'll BUY this crap." from lizziecrowe, assuming that because someone does not have a high-school or college diploma, they are more prone to non-logical arguments.

You'd think a published writer would know the significance of a preposition.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

The prepostion {of} implies that [most ignorant] and {most violent} are a subset of {the lowest educational bracket} and {only ones} excludes everyone else from the set. If I could draw a Venn diagram, I would.

Unless the [college educated] are a congruent subset of {the lowest educational bracket}, they are excluded so the commenter above is wrong.

So, the statement implies that the people who believe "this crap" are necessarily part of a poorly educated subset. I stand with my original statement.

Tom

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

I'd like to introduce this report on the law-enforcement and correctional institute situation from the Pew Center on the States:

http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/uploadedFiles/PSPP_1in31_report_FINAL_WEB_3-26-09.pdf

There has been a corrections increase of 350% in the last thirty years with a significant increase in crime. Clearly law enforcement is not the answer to our issues.

Tom

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

...You know, when someone burns a straw man, they usually at least try to justify it as an attack on the actual target.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

Sorry, scifantasy, I should have either sent the link to alverant and lumpy or explained further. The cop/incarceration thing is the continuation of a discussion from another topic were I was trying to explain how police make things more dangerous rather than safer.

The report, while not directly relevant to the 14th Amendment, is still an excellent argument *in the direction* of that other discussion.

Now, as far as the 14th Amendment goes, the Federal government has been for two generations the most aware entity out there as far as race goes and has shown both a tendency to overreact (in the case of firing folks with a claim of racism against them, true or not) and a tendency to use created dependency on it (the "granting" of rights that people are, in reality, born with, for example) to gain power over them and to use their tax money and votes for its own end. Hell, if you read the 14th Amendment, you can see that its intent is to apply to the children of slaves--and I haven't seen too many of them around lately.

The present discussion (on both sides) is just another attempt by those in power to get votes for the fall election. Nothing important is going to happen, no votes will be made on this issue in the House and Senate. Nothing to see here, move along.

If the economy continues on the downward spiral that I expect, the immigration issue will solve itself. The situation in the border states will clear up as the difference in money-making activity between home and Arizona or Illinois converges and people simply go home to their parents and brothers and sisters. At the same time, as US citizenship becomes less and less "special" with time, there won't be as big a drive to gain it for one's children.

An exception to this might be California and the Southwest--there's a good chance that the Reconquista may actually work and I expect a lot of the new Latin folks to stay and join those who never left. I'm not sure what kind of citizenship will be provided there--it'll be up to the new governments.

(As an aside, I'm also the grandson of an illegal. In exchange for granting my father citizenship, they got someone who removed beach obstacles on Omaha, improvised tank traps at the Bulge, and liberated a death camp. Not a bad deal, if you ask me. Things even out over time, I'm not frightened in the least by the children of immigrants, legal or otherwise.)

Tom

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

Sorry, scifantasy, I should have either sent the link to alverant and lumpy or explained further. The cop/incarceration thing is the continuation of a discussion from another topic were I was trying to explain how police make things more dangerous rather than safer.

I dropped that woman off at the riverbank, why are you still carrying her?

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

(As an aside, I'm also the grandson of an illegal. In exchange for granting my father citizenship, they got someone who removed beach obstacles on Omaha, improvised tank traps at the Bulge, and liberated a death camp. Not a bad deal, if you ask me. Things even out over time, I'm not frightened in the least by the children of immigrants, legal or otherwise.)

I thought attempting to use your heritage to increase the validity of your argument was BAAAAD.

But I forget, you're King of that little world you've made for yourself, so you can change the rules as you see fit.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Chill. All of you. No personal attacks.

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

Speak my name and I shall appear.

[sveethot.livejournal.com]

I knew there was going to be a huge fallout when the Republicans first got into bed with the religious right-wings. Their bastard children are the idiots we now see parading around like they own the bloody Constitution.

I, as a brown person whose forbears settled northern New Mexico in 1598, am scared shitless for everyone who doesn't have a teabag dangling from their nethers.

[lothie.livejournal.com]

So awesome!

[stevemb.livejournal.com]

From the GOP's website list of Proud Republican Accomplishments (http://www.gop.com/index.php/learn/accomplishment/):

Republicans Passed the 14th Amendment

The 14th Amendment guarantees due process and equal protection of the laws to all citizens. It enshrines in the Constitution provisions of the GOP’s 1866 Civil Rights Act. The original purpose of the 14th Amendment was to defend African-Americans from their Democrat oppressors in the post-Civil War South.

The principal author of the 14th Amendment was U.S. Rep. John Bingham (R-OH). In Congress, all votes in favor of the 14th Amendment were from Republicans, and all votes against it were from Democrats.

In 1868, the Republican Governor of New Jersey vetoed an attempt by the Democrat-controlled legislature to rescind the state's ratification of the 14th Amendment.

Oopsie....

[morpheus0013.livejournal.com]

To be fair, 1866 Republicans bear little to no resemblance to 2010 Republicans. Which says more about the GOP's ability to understand their own history than it does about nearly anything else.

Every time someone yanks out, "Lincoln was a Republican!" I want to punch them in the mouth a little.

[morpheus0013.livejournal.com]

Given what I've read today about the Prop 8 case decision and the involvement of 14th amendment rights in that situation, I suspect any attempt to repeal the 14th amendment may not stop at race.

[mtgat]

My favorite (and by "favorite," I mean "I threw up in my mouth") bit from last night's DS was when the attorney (didn't catch her name) essentially said "They don't love their children the way we love ours." OMGWTFISWRONGWITHYOU!!1111

Sorry. Still ready to punch things.