Stealing From Grandma

[filkertom]

How can people be like this?

Okay, first thing: When a family member asks you to help them because they can't do something, and you steal from them, you fail at life.

Do you have a power of attorney and/or a living will? (No details necessary.) I've got some docs to that effect, but I should likely formalize them.

ETA: That ol' pedant old_fortissimo points out that robbery (the original subject line was "Robbing Your Grandparents") is a more violent action than that indicated in the article.

Comments

[cainle-bean.livejournal.com]

My parents have the power of attorney and living will stating that I will take over things for them if they cannot. This is due to the fact that I am the least irresponsible daughter =p. They have verbally and formally made me aware of their wishes. I would never take advantage of this. Its not in my nature. My sisters... yeah totally would.

The hubby is required to have the living will on file with the military. Once again I am responsible for that end of things too.

I do not have one yet. I probably should one day soon.

[scruffycritter.livejournal.com]

Having been through similar stuff (you saw my father's estate saga), I have one recommendation for anyone.

Do it right. Have them appointed as a conservator (not added to your account -- it's *the* distinction between them being required to act in your interests vs your money being theirs too which what screwed the poor sod in the linked article.

And once you do that, never EVER FOR ANY REASON opt to waive the liability bond requirement for the conservator or executor that's usually required by law unless you specifically say to not do it.

I don't care how much you think you can trust them. Even if youre right, someone else might rob their house and get your account's checkbook.

Yeah, it will cost your estate/conservatorship some money to insure/bond them, but if they run off with your money, you get it back AND they get an insurance company coming down on their ass. And if they have a money problem, the insurance company won't accept them and then it's not like you were being the bad guy by not trusting your family member.

Really.

[ladysoapmaker.livejournal.com]

My husband and I have been talking about 2 years on finalizing our stuff. We found out through a friend that even though we are married that if we have separate accounts and no financial power of attorney we still don't have access to the accounts in the case of disability or hospitalization. She found out the hard way. With the kids we really need to finalize our wills. I have everything on the computer and just need to print it out and take to the lawyer to confirm it will work (darn blended families *grin*).

[cainle-bean.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling a lot of things like this differ from state to state. In AL (not a community property state) we were told the same thing. As a matter of fact, if I were hospitalized and we were not married, the hospital would defer to my parents even if he was named in a living will.

In TX, which is a community property state, anything that is in one of our names, is considered to be joint property.

I may be missing something, but that is what we have been told so far in our travels and life and such =p.

[ladysoapmaker.livejournal.com]

I know it's weird. We are in a community property state according to all that I've been told however when her husband had his stroke and was incapacitated she couldn't touch his account and had to go to court to keep her MIL from being able to make medical decisions for her husband and to keep her away from his money. (He has a military pension that went into an account that was in his name alone.) The Judge basically said that if they had gotten powers of attorney for each other this would have solved all the issues.

[redneckgaijin.livejournal.com]

The article being in the Detroit News renders it... less than surprising. Shame, really, because it's a problem nationwide- not just in the Fifth Tire Rim of Hell.

For my part- aside from a hastily typed document made just before the power went out in Hurricane Ike and left on the computer desktop- I've got no will, living will, etc. My circle of friends in a position to do anything is damn tiny, and I've got no wife or children and no immediate prospects for same.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

I should. My neighbor does estate planning. I'd ask him, but it would involve revealing too many things about my personal life that I'd like to keep secret from. I think of him as a friend as well as neighbor. I don't want to burden him with instructions like "Upon my death, go to my computer and delete all the porn and destroy all the backups I made of it."

I am an organ donor though.

My grandaunt gave her body to science (she was 96 when she passed away). I'd like to do that too.

[bryanp.livejournal.com]

I don't want to burden him with instructions like "Upon my death, go to my computer and delete all the porn and destroy all the backups I made of it."

Heh. I know at least one person who says he has everything of that nature stored on a gigantic Truecrypt volume, for that very reason.

[kilbia.livejournal.com]

I do not currently have anything formal of the sort, though DH and I did make sure that my MIL gave both of us financial and medical POA shortly after she moved up here.

I have a Word doc that lists what I want done with *me* after I pass, and I am going to send in a fresh copy of my insurance policy's beneficiary designation form this year when I re-up, just to be sure. But I don't have much typed up in the way of what I want done with my stuff. If my net worth is currently positive, I'm not sure it's by very much, so it's been hard to justify the effort to myself.

[r-caton.livejournal.com]

Few relations now but I do have a will - and the beneficiary knows damn well they are lumbered with clearing the mess up when I die (or most likely go gaga). Wasn't so much of a problem with Mum since I handled the exchequer anyways.

[zellion.livejournal.com]

We need to talk about that. Need to make provisions for custody of our son should something happen to husband and I...

[hughcasey.livejournal.com]

Sadly, in my line of work, we see this thing ALL THE TIME. The elderly and incompetent are more likely to to have assets stolen by family members than anyone else, just for this reason.

Worst reason I know of? "Well, when she died, it was just going to be mine anyway!"

[ann-totusek.livejournal.com]

I'm currently playing both sides of the game- I have a plenary and medical POA which my husband holds. I have his. I have an advanced directive, as does hubby. I've also recently become my mother's guardian because of her worsening dementia. Spend the $$ and get an attorney. The peace of mind knowing you have done it completely and correctly is worth it. Addressing a comment made by someone else- yes, you can have a conservator, but a well constructed POA elimiated that need for us, which I like because in the state of MO (where Mom resides) a conservancy results in a PITA audit every year, and keeping every frakkin' receipt for everything of theirs you spend on them ever. And can be redone at the whim of the court (though usually they're pretty good about not doing that gratuitously because it causes them a lot of extra work too). It's a balance- if I'd had to do all that extra work, I'd have said "Screw it -let the state appoint one!" but I knew that if I did that then someone who didn't know her would have been making her decisions for her. Oddly enough, people who have precisely zero direct stake in someone else's happiness (vs. basic health and well-being) can show remarkably little concern over how they spend that someone else's money, even though they're spending it ON the other person- they have no overwhelming desire to actually conserve the assets so that the person doesn't end up out of money and having to move- it's no personal problem for them unless they seriously mess up and have to answer for it legally.

[judifilksign.livejournal.com]

Very telling in the story: that elder abuse is where spousal abuse was twenty years or so ago, in that the law does not view it as a crime. (And didn't I see on a post yesterday that Jimmy Carter left the Baptist Church over their antique views on how women are officially regarded?)

As our country ages, I think more of these stories will be showing up, and I am actually surprised we haven't heard more of these situations given the financial recession of our times.

I wonder if the "I'm giving my kid a better life than I had" attitude parents of the boom years led to feelings of entitlement. (This still means they are greedy and awful, no excuses!) My husband wonders whether some of these cases are an abused child or grandchild getting in their "tit for tat."

[moonshadowed.livejournal.com]

While preparing for our adoption, hubby and I had to have a document specifying who would care for our children in the event of our death. But we may need to amend it and or make a formal will.

We also need to set up some sort of trust/care for our autistic son.

So much to think about, and its scary...but necessary.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Not at present, but I don't have any serious property or such. One day, when I do, we'll see.

I am, however, planning to take Trusts and Estates if I can during my 3L year.

[shockwave77598.livejournal.com]

I hope she invests it in Peruvian pork belly futures, and makes 10 million dollars. After that, I hope she invests in GM and nets a cool 100 million dollars in stock. Then I hope she prods GM into building self-driving cars, and she has 1 billion dollars to her name.

Then, while she's in a hospital for an operation, she gives her daughter full power of attorney. And said daughter takes every nickle and runs off to live on the Mediteranian island she just purchased...

[old-fortissimo.livejournal.com]

Forgive the pedant in me: the newspaper article does not describe robbery of the elderly.

Robbery is theft accomplished by violence or threat of violence.

This, at best - or worst - was embezzlement, someone misusing funds to which she had legitimate access.

Unfortunately, locally we know exactly what robbery of an elder is, and burglary, too.

A local resident disturbed an ongoing burglary of his home by a masked intruder, there was a scuffle, and the resident shot and killed the intruder...who turned out to be his grandson.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009907010379

No charges were brought against the grandfather.

[admnaismith.livejournal.com]

In my line of work, I see this a lot. The excuses range from the reasonable to the pathetic.

* "As his Alzheimers worsened, before we took over, he completely messed up his accounts, giving money away, ordering things he didn't need. Most of what's missing was gone when we took over, and the rest went to settle his bills" (And yes, that's the truth)

* "It went to her assisted living center and health care. Her brother just doesn't have a clue how expensive those things are. Maybe you can help me redocument it" (also true)

* "Times are tough, and my kids need to eat, too. I'm sure dad would want to help out if he had all his marbles...and it's a lot of trouble caring for him. Can't I, you know, give myself like a stipend for his care?"

* "I paid off my credit card bills. Without all that interest and fees, I figured I could pay her back, you know, over time."

* "Just takin' an advance on my inheritance, heh."

* "Uh, I dunno why, man" (Translation: I'll trade anything of value I can get my hands on for meth money, and I no longer have enough brain cells to even figure out there's anything wrong with that. The karma is, it won't be long before I'm completely dependent on someone to look after me too)

The guilty ones failed at life long before they further failed at life by stealing from their dependent parents. This is just the next part of hitting bottom.

Further, sometimes their parent-victims failed at life too, by clearly having contributed to raising their children to be that way.

[ladywench.livejournal.com]

I have two friends at opposite ends of the country who have talked about their different sisters taking their Mothers' money after she had to go into a Nursing Home for varying dementia-like issues. Stories of selling houses and condos out from under without telling anyone and keeping the cash, cashing in bonds and other securities, etc.

And now, one of those Mothers is running out of money and may not be able to afford the nursing home anymore.

I may not always agree with my Mother, and her health is seriously failing these days (bone cancer), but I would never . . . NEVER evern dream of cheating her like that. Ok, when I was little I stole money from her purse once or twice to buy books. But honorable grown-up people do NOT behave like children this way!!!

Makes me sick, both at heart and stomach.

[robin-june.livejournal.com]

When the mother runs out of money, will she have to come live with and be cared for by sister who sold her nursing-home-rent out from under them?

[ladywench.livejournal.com]

Nope. Said-selfish-sister either is in too small a place or has other "good reason" to not have MOther move in. Mother would end up being taken by my friend, who als currently has a husband with major health issues. Whiel she is not a saint, she is at least honorable and good-hearted.

[laurel-potter.livejournal.com]

I've just taken over handling my parents money, but they don't have anything big, like hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings, property, or anything else. They just get their retirement and SS, and, since they live with me, we just merge our money together to pay the mortgage and bills and such.

I write out checks, and my mom signs them. I tell her where every penny goes. It actually works out better, because she was keeping a checkbook the old-fashioned way, but now we have it all on line.

What these people do to their family members is criminal.

[kkatowll.livejournal.com]

Wow, I wrote a super informal living will in half an hour before undergoing serious surgery, with the help of two friends who basically agreed to take care of everything. It never occurred to any of us that such a thing could be used to actually steal money...though now that I think about it, of course it can. Now I should change my will. At least I have plenty of time now to think about it! :)

[markbernstein.livejournal.com]

We're well prepared. I have on file copies of my mother's living will and durable power of attorney (which I hold) papers. This year, Sharon and I had a tax lawyer do the whole shot - updated wills, living wills, and establishing a trust to avoid probate. The only thing I'm lagging on, and will do shortly, is getting all my retirement assets into the trust.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing of the kind set up for me. No will, no living will, no PoA, no nothing. Although I do have I.C.E. numbers in my cel phone. They go to Rob and my Dad.

I know I should remedy this, especially since the thought of me being seriously injured and my parents (who are my legal next-of-kin) having to AGREE on treatment options if I'm incapacitated scares me more than anything. I'd probably be dead for lack of treatment before they were able to reach an agreement. (Unless only one of them has to make the decision, in which case Dad will probably be the one they get in touch with first...)

It's my impression that next-of-kin status tends to trump PoA in practice, regardless of what the law says. This is pretty much the main reason I believe so strongly in the concept of marriage. It's legal establishment of non-blood next-of-kin.

I was unaware that it didn't always convey PoA, though.

If this ever becomes an issue for me, I suppose I'll have to look into that.

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

It's easier when you don't have a SO or loving (grandma-embezzling) kids. (I also wonder how badly those parents spoiled the kids who now think Grandma's money is their due.)

I have a holographic will in my fireproof safe leaving my house to a near relative. My other accounts get divvied up for several other family members.

But I do need to make a "Fannish" will -- so that my irreplacable out of print zines don't get trashed by people looking for the VALUABLE stuff...

[bryanp.livejournal.com]

I still need to update all my insurance info and make a will / living will.

Also, I don't care if it's your parents, your kids, your cousins or a complete stranger. You don't take advantage of people like that. So called "people" like the woman who stole from grandma really make me want to make an exception for the cruel and unusual punishment rule. Being horsewhipped through the middle of town, naked, seems a suitable punishment.

On a related note, yesterday's SMBC comic describes a religious doctrine I could get behind.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1590

[tlatoani.livejournal.com]

For medical decisionmaking in Michigan, you need a "Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care," not a living will. Here's an example:

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/umlegal02.htm

Note that these laws vary from state to state, and note also that these documents are useless if you can't actually present them (or a copy of them) to care providers in the clinical environment. A copy locked in your safe five states away does no good.

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

Dale and I each have durable POA, healthcare directives, and living wills naming the other. We're also married, so that helps. We each have a will naming the other as executor and sole beneficiary.

My will names my brother as my executor in the event of a common disaster. It just occurred to me that I should probably talk to Dale and see if his brother Rich would be willing to do that that for me, rather than my brother, because my brother -- and I love him, don't get me wrong -- wouldn't be able to cope.