Hal Sparks this morning on Stephanie Miller said he's tired of the "lesser evil" statements. Okay, it's a lesser evil. One's a pickpocket, the other's a murderer. Which one do you want to have sleep in your house.
So the feeling I get when I learn that Obama's continuing torture at Bagram, cracking down to ensure that military commissions at Guantanamo deliver only guilty verdicts, blocking even the mention of torture, never mind investigations and prosecutions of those responsible, and wrote off the public option from the word go on health care reform...
No, you can be incandescently raging about that all you want, m'friend. Maher's being overly snarky, and I'm never happy with anyone -- especially on our own side -- telling us to grow up (I'm lookin' at you, Rahm, Veep Joe) -- but his larger point is too important to gloss over: We wouldn't have even the ghost of a shadow of a sliver of a whisper of a fraction of a glimpse of a chance in hell of ever fixing all that under Republican rule. That was where it started.
Unfortunately we don't have a hope in hell of fixing it under DEMOCRATIC rule, either, Q. E. D. The most we can hope from them is that they won't make things any worse.
Neighbors? No, not your neighbors. The Republican leaders. That's the point he's making.
And the national "dialogue" has been hosed for years now, by them. They play it. They gloss over their own shit, and savage anybody on the opposing side for the most minor real or perceived infractions, often precisely the same ones they themselves have committed, often more egregiously. There is no national dialogue. You can't carry on intelligent conversation with trolls who are hitting you in the nads with spiked clubs.
My problem is that I have had that happen five times more often among liberals than among conservatives, five times more often among atheists than among Christians, and five times more often among scientists than among "ignorant" rednecks.
The latter dislike what I say as much as the first group does, but they do not call me insane or vicious or hateful to people or racist or sexist or homophobic or evil....
But I can carry on a conversation with the folks who live on the same block with me. It doesn't help that conversation when they're all feeling defensive because yet another pundit came out and said or implied that they're an enemy of the state because they vote Republican.
Learn a lesson from this, that being it's just as wrong now as it was when we were called a bunch of terrorist-sympathizing America-haters for 7 years straight.
But alright... PLEASE learn a lesson from this, that being it's just as wrong now as it was when we were called a bunch of terrorist-sympathizing America-haters for 7 years straight. THANK YOU.
You exaggerate. It also doesn't help the conversation when a pundit or politician says you're an enemy of the state for voting Democratic or questioning Republicans either.
The previous administration said anyone questioning them were helping the terrorist. Obama's administration hasn't said anything like that. Did you know Obama got more death threats in his first 8 months in office that W did in eight YEARS? Did any Democratic senator talk about an armed revolution when W was in office the way some Republicans have? The right wingers have more guns and has pundit who said they should "take aim" at the other side. Your neighbors got a small taste of what they've been giving us for decades. Maybe if we heard less extreme talk from the right, everyone else will cool down. After all, they are the worst offenders.
Would you be good enough to show me where I exaggerated? I think I stated the situation as accurately as I possibly can.
What the previous administration did that was wrong was, in fact, wrong. It does not provide any sort of justification for excesses on anyone else's part.
Again, my neighbors are pretty quiet people. They go to work, raise their families, and write to their elected officials if they're unhappy about something. What some pundit says, or some elected official from another state, isn't something they feel any particular need to publically disclaim, just like I don't feel the need to jump up and disclaim every bit of nonsense that Michael Moore spouts off with. But they also don't like being dismissed as stupid when they're not.
" It doesn't help that conversation when they're all feeling defensive because yet another pundit came out and said or implied that they're an enemy of the state because they vote Republican."
I haven't heard of any. At least not any who has as many fans as say O'Reily or Coulter both of which have said far worse things about Democrats.
What the previous administration did was not only wrong, it pushed back the limits of what's considered excess. Sometimes you have to keep up with the Jones.
I forgot to mention. More than once conservatives had told me I should be executed just for being liberal and/or Atheist because being one was treason. What kind of dialog should I expect when that happens?
And that was wrong, no question about it. You're probably not going to be able to have any kind of dialogue with such a person. But there are many, many Republicans you can have a dialogue with, and letting the most extreme blind you to the reality of the others is a poor way to engage in your community.
Then the moderates should stand up and make their voice heard. You know like how I hear from conservatives how muslims should stand up against the extremists in their religion.
And why do you assume I know no Republicans with whom I can have a dialog with? I know some and they are nice people most of the time. But they can be selfish at times and tend to forget that everyone within our borders have the same rights as everyone else. They tend to think it's OK to ignore the law in the name of "national interest".
Same reason I assume he intends to vote for the Republican candidate in your area, who also calls liberals anti-American terrorists. It's a Republican thing. It's what they do.
Those few who don't--like Arlen Specter, Lincoln Chafee, and Charlie Crist---stopped being Republicans.
Do you call him on it when he spews his Limbaugh-Beck-Coulter-Savage-Schlessinger-Liddy-Hannity talking points about how Democrats are the embodiment of all evil, worse than Hitler, and will no one rid them of these turbulent priests? Or are only Democrats supposed to be above such unsightly name calling?
Your neighbors are freaking out because they're only now seeing what it's like to be on the receiving end, even slightly. Those of us on the left are only now learning to stand up and respond in kind.
Not that he's ever quoted the nuts to me, but if he did I'd tell him it's bullshit and I'd tell him why.
As for the Republican candidates in our local elections, the ones who've tried that crap quickly found themselves un-elected. It's impossible to get elected in my county without attracting some Democratic cross-over votes. The county runs over 60% registered Democrats. But even with that kind of majority there are Republicans who still do get elected because they know how to run on issues and not extreme rhetoric.
It's nice to know that such places still exist. Seems to me, a geniune two-party system, where you can choose between two candidates who are moderatley worth voting for and the incumbent must be careful to address the concerns of her constituents or risk losing to somebody who does, would be a good idea.
In my area, though, the Republicans are so over-the-top wackadoodle as to NEVER be worthy of consideration, and so we go with whatever Every-Flavor-Bean the Democrats choose to offer. At least by registering Democrat, I usually get to make a meaningful choice in the primary.
And it's like that almost everywhere. In some places, the majority loves fringe conservatism and votes one-party Republican. In the rest of the country, they vote one-party Democrat because that's the only alternative to The Teahad. If they're lucky, the Democrat is worth voting for.
All I can say to you is, if there are moderate Republicans in your area, know that you're lucky and that your situation is NOT the national norm.
I have a friend in western Massachusetts who belongs to a "tea party" that predates Rick Santelli by several years, and that is genuinely libertarian, including openly socially liberal, and intelligent, and she thinks that the national Tea Party movement is just like that, all over America. No amount of examples of candidates and their media handmaidens and supporters at events wallowing in Christian Dominionism, anti-intellectualism, xenophobia and cruelty is enough to convince her. They're always dismissed as a biased establishment media picking on the rebels, and never mind that the same examples are shown all over the media spectrum, approvingly by FOX and disapprovingly on the liberal blogs. Please don't be like that. Please don't kid yourself that the national GOP Teahad is anything like your reasonable neighbors.
You're comparing a slap in the face with a gangbanger beat-in. The same Republicans who cheered Clinton getting impeached for a blow job were silent when W lied to force us into a war of choice. The same Republicans who didn't care about the $3 TRILLION wasted for Iraq are raising hell about a small percentage of that being spent to actually maintain this country. When the right wing media publish best-selling books calling liberals traitor on the cover or eagerly show edited footage on their news stations (then claiming to be unbias) or supporting the notion their president can break the law with impunity or act like your view alone defines patriotism and anyone who disagrees is helping the terrorists, there can be no national dialog.
I'll assume you don't know what my neighbors write to their congresspeople about, or how they feel about things like TARP. They're not the sort of people who go to demonstrations or Tea Party conventions. I'm pretty sure they were not unquestioningly falling in behind George W. Bush's every policy when he was in office. But they continue to vote for Republican candidates because they're concerned about issues like taxes and liberties. I live in a Republican dominated precinct of a neutral county in a heavily Democratic state where the Democratic machine ran the state for a long, long time. People have long memories.
Once again, a political opposition is not a deadly enemy until it takes up arms and foments rebellion.
Except Obama is lowering taxes for most Americans and he's not a threat to our liberties. I asked several conservatives specifically which liberties Obama was going to take away and they mentioned guns and/or religion. Neither of which Obama has done anything to indicate he's going to take those rights away. In fact, Obama hasn't done anything to threaten our liberties, just the entitlements some people feel they deserve because of the political and/or religious beliefs. And those aren't liberties.
Now on the other hand conservatives have threatened our rights and have tried to restrict them. Not just on issues of gay marriage, but making non-christians second-class citizens, and making a false history to teach in school.
And if people have long memories, then they should remember that we were hit by the worst terrorist attack when Republicans had control over all three branches of government despite being warned. We've gone twice as long during Obama's term as W and he's STOPPED terrorist attacks instead of using them for political gain. Do your neighbors remember that too?
I'll vote Democratic, but I will not work for the Party, or defend its conservative leaders (which include Obama, an admirer of Ronald Reagan) until the Party leadership shows some signs of understanding the hope and change we voted for in 2008.
I'm a lot more than dissapointed. Heartbroken, I think the word is.
I'd have to agree. Plus the lies told about W pale in comparison to what's said about Obama. The rhetoric on the right is far more vicious than what's on the left.
So what are we to assume then about the gentleman picked up by the police not 20 miles from my home with a car full of guns and ammo and a Photoshopped picture of the president pasted onto the famous FDR cig-holder-in-car picture? (Points to the man for a concrete historical reference that makes some sense, but I realized that this may have been the picture safest for daytime local tv news--we all know there's worse out there.)
wcg, you are correct, I must assume barring any real knowledge of you that this is not something you condone. But when I see worse pictures posted up around my office, and hear guys in my shop talking about the concealed gun permits they hurried to get "before Obama could stop them," which a few of them apparently bring to work, and read about how I am, as a liberal feminist, an ugly terrorist traitor who caused 9/11 and should die and go to hell...well, what *am* I supposed to think?
From where I sit, some of your regular American folks are getting scarier by the minute.
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branchandroot
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-06 08:47 pm (UTC)Hal Sparks this morning on Stephanie Miller said he's tired of the "lesser evil" statements. Okay, it's a lesser evil. One's a pickpocket, the other's a murderer. Which one do you want to have sleep in your house.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 02:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-06 10:45 pm (UTC)So the feeling I get when I learn that Obama's continuing torture at Bagram, cracking down to ensure that military commissions at Guantanamo deliver only guilty verdicts, blocking even the mention of torture, never mind investigations and prosecutions of those responsible, and wrote off the public option from the word go on health care reform...
... that feeling is disappointment.
And not incandescent rage.
Thanks for the correction, Bill.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-06 11:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:52 am (UTC)King Log, King Stork--I know which one I pick.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-06 11:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-06 11:24 pm (UTC)And the national "dialogue" has been hosed for years now, by them. They play it. They gloss over their own shit, and savage anybody on the opposing side for the most minor real or perceived infractions, often precisely the same ones they themselves have committed, often more egregiously. There is no national dialogue. You can't carry on intelligent conversation with trolls who are hitting you in the nads with spiked clubs.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:20 am (UTC)My problem is that I have had that happen five times more often among liberals than among conservatives, five times more often among atheists than among Christians, and five times more often among scientists than among "ignorant" rednecks.
The latter dislike what I say as much as the first group does, but they do not call me insane or vicious or hateful to people or racist or sexist or homophobic or evil....
They just call me wrong.
Tom Trumpinski
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:24 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:39 am (UTC)Learn a lesson from this, that being it's just as wrong now as it was when we were called a bunch of terrorist-sympathizing America-haters for 7 years straight.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:50 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:55 am (UTC)But alright... PLEASE learn a lesson from this, that being it's just as wrong now as it was when we were called a bunch of terrorist-sympathizing America-haters for 7 years straight. THANK YOU.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 01:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 01:09 am (UTC)ENOUGH.
NOT AT EACH OTHER.
AT LEAST, NOT ON MY LJ.
Capish?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 01:28 am (UTC)"Are you trying to say 'capice'? Don't... It hurts my EARS when you say it."
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:24 am (UTC)The previous administration said anyone questioning them were helping the terrorist. Obama's administration hasn't said anything like that. Did you know Obama got more death threats in his first 8 months in office that W did in eight YEARS? Did any Democratic senator talk about an armed revolution when W was in office the way some Republicans have? The right wingers have more guns and has pundit who said they should "take aim" at the other side. Your neighbors got a small taste of what they've been giving us for decades. Maybe if we heard less extreme talk from the right, everyone else will cool down. After all, they are the worst offenders.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:39 am (UTC)What the previous administration did that was wrong was, in fact, wrong. It does not provide any sort of justification for excesses on anyone else's part.
Again, my neighbors are pretty quiet people. They go to work, raise their families, and write to their elected officials if they're unhappy about something. What some pundit says, or some elected official from another state, isn't something they feel any particular need to publically disclaim, just like I don't feel the need to jump up and disclaim every bit of nonsense that Michael Moore spouts off with. But they also don't like being dismissed as stupid when they're not.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 04:08 am (UTC)I haven't heard of any. At least not any who has as many fans as say O'Reily or Coulter both of which have said far worse things about Democrats.
What the previous administration did was not only wrong, it pushed back the limits of what's considered excess. Sometimes you have to keep up with the Jones.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:26 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:41 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 04:05 am (UTC)And why do you assume I know no Republicans with whom I can have a dialog with? I know some and they are nice people most of the time. But they can be selfish at times and tend to forget that everyone within our borders have the same rights as everyone else. They tend to think it's OK to ignore the law in the name of "national interest".
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:54 am (UTC)Because calling people an enemy of the state is only acceptable from Republicans. Of course.
Seems to me, they've got several acres of ancient forest to pull out of their own eyes before they get to pick at the mote in ours.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 04:00 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 05:38 am (UTC)Same reason I assume he intends to vote for the Republican candidate in your area, who also calls liberals anti-American terrorists. It's a Republican thing. It's what they do.
Those few who don't--like Arlen Specter, Lincoln Chafee, and Charlie Crist---stopped being Republicans.
Do you call him on it when he spews his Limbaugh-Beck-Coulter-Savage-Schlessinger-Liddy-Hannity talking points about how Democrats are the embodiment of all evil, worse than Hitler, and will no one rid them of these turbulent priests? Or are only Democrats supposed to be above such unsightly name calling?
Your neighbors are freaking out because they're only now seeing what it's like to be on the receiving end, even slightly. Those of us on the left are only now learning to stand up and respond in kind.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 05:44 am (UTC)As for the Republican candidates in our local elections, the ones who've tried that crap quickly found themselves un-elected. It's impossible to get elected in my county without attracting some Democratic cross-over votes. The county runs over 60% registered Democrats. But even with that kind of majority there are Republicans who still do get elected because they know how to run on issues and not extreme rhetoric.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:09 pm (UTC)It's nice to know that such places still exist. Seems to me, a geniune two-party system, where you can choose between two candidates who are moderatley worth voting for and the incumbent must be careful to address the concerns of her constituents or risk losing to somebody who does, would be a good idea.
In my area, though, the Republicans are so over-the-top wackadoodle as to NEVER be worthy of consideration, and so we go with whatever Every-Flavor-Bean the Democrats choose to offer. At least by registering Democrat, I usually get to make a meaningful choice in the primary.
And it's like that almost everywhere. In some places, the majority loves fringe conservatism and votes one-party Republican. In the rest of the country, they vote one-party Democrat because that's the only alternative to The Teahad. If they're lucky, the Democrat is worth voting for.
All I can say to you is, if there are moderate Republicans in your area, know that you're lucky and that your situation is NOT the national norm.
I have a friend in western Massachusetts who belongs to a "tea party" that predates Rick Santelli by several years, and that is genuinely libertarian, including openly socially liberal, and intelligent, and she thinks that the national Tea Party movement is just like that, all over America. No amount of examples of candidates and their media handmaidens and supporters at events wallowing in Christian Dominionism, anti-intellectualism, xenophobia and cruelty is enough to convince her. They're always dismissed as a biased establishment media picking on the rebels, and never mind that the same examples are shown all over the media spectrum, approvingly by FOX and disapprovingly on the liberal blogs. Please don't be like that. Please don't kid yourself that the national GOP Teahad is anything like your reasonable neighbors.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:16 am (UTC)Maher is just telling it like it is.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:29 am (UTC)Once again, a political opposition is not a deadly enemy until it takes up arms and foments rebellion.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 04:01 am (UTC)Now on the other hand conservatives have threatened our rights and have tried to restrict them. Not just on issues of gay marriage, but making non-christians second-class citizens, and making a false history to teach in school.
And if people have long memories, then they should remember that we were hit by the worst terrorist attack when Republicans had control over all three branches of government despite being warned. We've gone twice as long during Obama's term as W and he's STOPPED terrorist attacks instead of using them for political gain. Do your neighbors remember that too?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-06 11:37 pm (UTC)I'm a lot more than dissapointed. Heartbroken, I think the word is.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 12:54 am (UTC)But he's a thousand times better than the alternative. That's worth going out to vote for.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 03:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-07 05:58 pm (UTC)To say nothing of the actual deeds.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-10-08 04:04 pm (UTC)wcg, you are correct, I must assume barring any real knowledge of you that this is not something you condone. But when I see worse pictures posted up around my office, and hear guys in my shop talking about the concealed gun permits they hurried to get "before Obama could stop them," which a few of them apparently bring to work, and read about how I am, as a liberal feminist, an ugly terrorist traitor who caused 9/11 and should die and go to hell...well, what *am* I supposed to think?
From where I sit, some of your regular American folks are getting scarier by the minute.