It's All Your Own Fault

[filkertom]

A lovely little collection of rants. (h/t Atrios.)

Comments

Hey Tom!

[cathain.livejournal.com]

This is totally off topic but I wanted you to see this and didn't know how to bring it to your attention. I think you'll enjoy it.
http://wellknowwhenwegetthere.blogspot.com/2009/08/sincerely-john-hughes.html

[saganth.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything in that blog post... almost. I agree totally the man who killed those women was a twisted bastard without any self-responsibility and should burn in Hell. But, one doesn't need to be a murderer, or a man, to exhibit that lack of self-responsibility.

I'm overweight. Have been for years. And it is my own fault, no one else's. Whether or not a given individual finds me attractive as I am or ugly, ultimately pales in importance compared to how long my LIFE is. Obesity invariably, sooner or later, comes with a host of health problems that only get worse with time and age. High blood pressure, diabetes, cardiac stress and more. Not to mention always feeling like you don't have as much energy to do things as other people, not enough flexibility - I finally got myself help at age 34 and went to Weight Watchers because I was a grown human being who could barely bend my leg to my chest to TIE MY SHOE.

Should women, or men for that matter, be put down for being fat?? Hell no. It's cruel and insensitive. We don't insult people with cancer or MS or AIDS (unless you're a complete and total prick). Obesity is just another health problem.

However, should anyone have to apologize for finding obesity unattractive and unhealthy? A person who takes care of themselves doesn't have to starve and look like a skinny streetwalker. They can do a little exercise, make an effort to eat right, show from frickin' SELF RESPONSIBILITY.

Too many overweight people complain they're fat and then continue to stuff their faces--I ought to know, as I have been one of those people. And many overweight people just don't care. "Oh look, I'm beautiful and I have no health problems. Don't you look down on me!"

Uh, yeah, and denial is a river in Egypt.

I'm sorry, I am truly very sorry, but anyone, male or female, who completely ignores their own responsibility for their own health, whether it's someone overeating without exercise or any kind of moderation, or someone with diabetes who doesn't watch their sugar levels, or someone with a drinking problem who won't get help, it is their own fault. And if they cannot handle the truth, they have bigger problems than they think the people around them do.

Now, with all that being said, what is also true is that men who look at women who are in reasonable shape but just happen to have a handful of extra pounds, and then call those women fat, that's just jackass behavior. These are the men women should truly be offended by, because these men are the clueless idiots who are holding all women to some kind of Hollywood fantasy standard who are incapable of accepting other people as they are when there is no problem. They invent a problem because they have invented a standard for other that very few people are able (or should) meet. And the same can be said of women who look down their noses at men who don't fit some Adonis ideal.

And I have learned that many feminists (and this is something I have experienced first-hand) are all too ready to take some perceived slight against themselves and twist it into a perverse hate that calls itself feminism, and isn't. Feminism is supposed to be about equality for women and freedom from victimization, NOT about condemning men for being men just because you're unhappy.

So please forgive me if anyone doesn't like my response to that blog. Yes, women should feel free to go anywhere they wish without needing an escort or fear of attack, just as any human being should have that right. Women and men should equally be free of persecution about their health, but it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for their health.

We are a shallow society - we all want what we want when we want it, how we want it and condemn everyone around us for not matching up to our envisioned ideals, while totally ignoring our own shortcomings. Hypocrisy.

*gets off the soapbox*

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

what is also true is that men who look at women who are in reasonable shape but just happen to have a handful of extra pounds, and then call those women fat

I got the idea (or else perhaps projected my own head onto hers, who knows) that that was the point. I don't know if you saw recently the whole "the new Surgeon General is totally morbidly obese" thing that went down recently, an it's ridiculous. The woman looks healthy. She does not look like a supermodel or like someone who spends her whole day obsessing about her diet and working out. She looks like a normal middle-aged woman with more important shit to do.

For whatever reason, the medical definition of "obese" keeps getting more and more stringent, and it's not because of actual health. People who are underweight are just as likely to have health problems as people who are overweight. But society has come to equate "thin" with "healthy"--and as a recovered anorexic, let me say quite fiercely this is Not The Case. I feel better and healthier at size 10 than size 5, and most of my health problems (mostly relating to blood sugar) have gone away, away, away.

I think, btw, that there is a certain amount of 'condemning men for being men' that IS feminist. It depends on what it is, of course, but because masculinity and femininity are both really just socially constructed concepts, and men have been the ones running the show for a couple of thousand years, frankly, they're the ones who made this mess. It's less condemnation on a personal level and more for striving to fit a preconceived social construct of what men are supposed to be. Just like it's frustrating when women fall into the same trap and let themselves be taken advantage of.

But anyway. Am in the middle of gender history master's dissertation (8k words to go!) so this is all at the front of my brain already anyway. ;) Mostly it was the 'don't go places at night' one that I identified with, because that DRIVES ME INSANE.

[shala-beads.livejournal.com]

I exercise, I lift weights, I eat healthy food and my blood tests routinely show me up as being very healthy, my husband does the same x 2. He walks miles every day, did the 100 push up challenge and works out regularly. Yesterday I watched him muscle the stuff we need to repair our roof on to my dad's truck without help to the astonishment of all the other guys watching.
We are both fat. Fat, healthy, and pretty happy with it.
The idea that all fat people are unhealthy is as stupid as the idea that all skinny people are. The only health issues I have are from injuries. My sugar levels and everything else are fine, and my blood pressure is usually perfect. Until someone tells me I should hate myself for not being a size 8.

[marsdejahthoris.livejournal.com]

THANK you.

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

Yep. I'm not quite back to being happy with my weight (I gained a LOT when I ws getting migraines that lasted for days/weeks) but my bloodwork #s are generally the envy of the doctor's office.

Edited for loltypo :P

[lariss.livejournal.com]

...and how quick every male was to attack her for her points.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

No, not every male. Some had legit disagreements, but not everyone "attacked" her.

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

Here's my soapbox:
Feminism was made out to be a bad thing by men, not women. We still earn less than men for the same work, and that right there means that we do still have a lot of work to do. Women are still very much being stuffed into second class, and just because some women thinks it's just fine to live there, most of us do not want to be.
To anyone still in the dark ages, "just push yourself away from the table" is not an appropriate suggestion to someone struggling with weight and all the bs that goes along with it in this society.
I have had it with being told everything that is wrong with me, just because I am fat. If I had a big nose people on the street would not feel that they had the right to tell me that I needed to get a nose job, and for that matter, didn't their mamas ever tell them not to say anything if they can't say anything nice?
I am very much aware of my own shortcomings (weight and otherwise) and most certainly do not need anyone's assistance in putting myself down for being fat. Maybe all of the self-righteous dips out there could start getting their kicks from being nice to people, instead of random putdowns. They could adopt a fatty (said with extreme sarcasm) and be their walking buddy. Of course, that would mean being SEEN with a fat person, what a horror! *sigh*

And by the way, a friend of mine works in the same office the shooter worked in. How's that for making it personal.

[the-blue-fenix.livejournal.com]

And by the way, a friend of mine works in the same office the shooter worked in. How's that for making it personal.

I have been purposely not following the internet crazy on this one. Has it stopped short of "some Real Woman (tm) should have sold herself into slavery to this obvious sociopath and then he wouldn't have Been Driven to murder those other women by his lack of a mate?" Or is that too much to hope for?

(already knows answer)

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

Not really. It's all "our fault" (yep, Tom, like you said), don'tcha know.

[redneckgaijin.livejournal.com]

Mm, my beef with the post is about the "walking alone after dark" part. Simply put, there are a lot of places where it's dangerous for ANYONE, male or female, to be alone at night- and a few places where being alone is dangerous even in broad daylight. Depending on context, it's entirely possible for someone to warn someone else against being alone after dark without regard to gender.

I say "depending on context" because it's also quite possible for someone to say, "want a big strong man to protect you hur hur hur," which is quite definitely sexist.

But the attitude, "I shouldn't HAVE to be careful, because nobody has any right to lay a finger on me!" is not helpful. It's technically correct, in the same sense that 2nd Amendment extremists hold that the Constitution gives them a right to own an AK-47, said right being currently violated by the US government. True... but unhelpful, because it omits common sense. Common sense dictates that those who intend to harm women (for whatever reason or purpose) have no interest in any particular woman's right to not be molested- and that precautions should be taken to reduce the risk.

It's misogynist and wrong to say that a woman or women deserve to suffer harm under conditions where men wouldn't. It's misogynist to say that women need men- or OUGHT to need men- to be safe and secure. But it's not misogynist for a woman to be told that someplace is a dangerous place to be alone at night.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's the thing. On one level, you're totes right. It is best for everyone to be careful in bad parts of town, while on holiday, etc etc and so on.

But when you are a woman, that is very rarely what people mean. I promise I'm saying this to explain a perspective, not to say 'oh you're wrong' or to look like I'm reading mysogyny into every bit of well-meaning advice. If someone says to me, "don't walk around Elephant and Castle at night," by all means, this is information I am keen to know. (I don't know any big American cities well enough to know the bad bits, sorry.) It's a rough part of town for men OR women.

But the context is almost never that. The context is almost ALWAYS "you should have some big strong man walk you across the parking lot because a rapist might be hiding under your car." This was true when I was little and my grandma said it, it's true now when people I barely know say it.

I can almost 100% promise that "I shouldn't have to be careful because nobody has a right to lay a finger on me" is not what the poster meant. She meant "it should not be automatically assumed that because I am a woman I should have to curtail my activities because men might be out there waiting to hurt me." Which is what we hear, most of us, from the time we're old enough to cross the street alone for the rest of our lives. And yeah, it does get frustrating after a couple of decades.

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

Yep. What you said.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

I have to ask, do you have telepathy or something? You seem to know what people are thinking and what they REALLY mean when they say something. I'm sorry, it does look like you're reading misogyny into everything then condemning things instantly. What happens if you're wrong? What happens if someone says "Don't go down Lake street after dark." because the half the street lights are out, the sidewalk desperately needs repairing, and the street has so many potholes a lunar rover would have problems? Or would that still be misogynistic because women wear high heels so are more likely to fall on the broken concrete?

It just seems you're a bit quick on the trigger to label a comment as misogynistic.

On a different subject, has the Elephant & Castle improved any? Last time I was at one, I was really disappointed in the quality of their food and they even took some of the British foods off the menu.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I expect that you probably also have the hidden talent of reading tone of voice, body language, and the way people word things to discern their meaning. It's how communication works. "Don't go down to Lake Street after dark" is not at all the same thing as "you shouldn't go places alone after dark", which is what the OP said. 'Go places' implies, well, anywhere. But that's all basically what I just said, so I won't keep going on. I don't know, obviously, if you're male or female, but if you are female, consider the number of times you have been told this, and which times had to do with streetlights and potholes, and which had to do with the assumption that women are inherently not safe alone. If you're a male, please consider how many times I've probably been told this, and maybe give me the benefit of the doubt for being able to tell the difference between sexism and common sense.

Alas, I just meant the south London district, rather than a particular venue, so I can't comment on the food. It's just a bit dodgy for anybody, though like many dodgy areas, looking like you know where you're going and won't take shit is always helpful.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

Nope, all I have is your words. You use words like "ALWAYS" and "100% promise". Yes, there was an "almost" before hand, but in my experience putting the word "almost" in front of an absolute means it's a safety guard for the lone exception. The OP said another woman said "you shouldn't go places alone after dark" so why were men being blamed? Last time I checked, the ability to use a gun and mug someone was not unique to the male gender. Warning someone about a bad neighborhood is not sexist. What I saw on the rant was someone taking a dose of common sense and twisting it around until it was sexist.

If I tell a woman she shouldn't go to a certain restaurant she should wait for me to complete my sentence that I saw roaches on the floor before she assumes that I'm telling her that she's fat. That's happened to me IRL and in her mind, it was still my fault she made a bad assumption.

And yes, I have been warned about bad roads. I have given same warnings to people going down those streets regardless of gender.

Ever see the Good Feathers cartoons on Animaiancs? Remember how one of the pigeons would say something innocent to Pesto and Pesto would get so angry that he'd start a fight? That's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing common sense remarks being taken as sexist and someone has to stand up against that.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

Okay. When a person writes something like the OP's rant, it assumes a certain level of empathy in the reader, at least from the intended audience. So when she says she's talking about her mother telling her not to leave her apartment after dark, other women who have had the same experience will, then, understand where she's coming from, and identify with it. This is why she didn't bother saying overtly, "I'm not talking about the times when they're warning me about a bad part of town that is dodgy for anyone of any age, sex, or size to walk at night unless they are well-armed." The audience already knows that. But then what happens is that people who do not want her to have a point come out and say, "but there are times when it's just common sense," thereby making her look like she is overreacting while completely bypassing her point. This is a tactic that is used a lot, mostly with women and people of colour, to make it look like they don't have a valid point by invoking tangenitally related incidents to obfuscate the actual point. Could sh e have been more clear? Absolutely. She was upset. One can make a case for "you should reread everything you post on the internet before you put it up for people to see, if you are upset," but that's not really the point here. So yes, "almost" is absolutely "a safety guard for the lone exception," since I do not have the aforementioned telepathy and therefore can't say it beyond all measure of doubt. I would, though, consider it a safe bet if I were putting money on it.

The fat thing actually has nothing to do with this, since we were dealing with the dark roads. I can't imagine most people will think you're calling them fat if you say "don't go to X restaurant." That's not even a logical leap. By the same token, bad roads, while they certainly exist and you advising people about them is perfectly reasonable, don't actually have anything to do with the OP's point. She's not talking about bad roads. She's talking about the assumption on the part of her mother/society/etc that women must assume that they are not safe leaving their homes after dark. Really, they are quite different things, and that is what my original comment was to explain--that we are, in general, aware of the difference between "people get mugged by the train station" and "are you sure you should be going outside alone?"

I haven't seen Animaniacs in a really long time so I don't remember that, but I don't actually think I'm in a fight. I'm (still) trying to explain that what women are taught is different from what men are taught. It has been this way for a long time. Women have been told that it's their fault if they wake the wildness in men since at least the 12th century. It's indoctrinated. It will be very slow to change. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work at it.

I don't know how much more commenting I'll be able to do as I'm quite short of time these days. I really am trying to explain a perspective rather than have a fight, so I hope you'll consider quite hard what I've been saying and not feel that you have to be defensive. Nobody listens to anything when they're defensive.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Kris, there's a HUGE difference between "that's a skeezy part of town, it's not safe to walk around there alone after dark" and "don't go ANYWHERE alone at night because it's not safe for a woman" -- which I've had said to me about the Randall's on 34th. Trust me, we can tell which one somebody is saying.

[lariss.livejournal.com]

And how often do you, as a man, get reprimanded for walking alone at night? Anywhere?

I get it about once or twice a month.

Additional

[the-blue-fenix.livejournal.com]

And can I, as always, recommend "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker? A book by a guy who totally DOES get it that women don't want to either live in self-imposed prisons or foolishly neglect real risks. Who then goes on to offer the best kind of empowerment, _practical freaking information_ about how to go on in this crazy world we currently have.

His other two books are good too but the above is most directly helpful for the problem in question.

[batyatoon]

I've been wondering why incidents like the gym shooting don't get labeled as hate crimes.

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

For the same reason that Klan activity, rape, and clinic bombings were never defined as terrorism. If it happens to un-people (i.e., women, PoC), it doesn't actually happen.

Notice that most men in this country didn't give a damn about the Taliban's treatment of women till after 9/11 -- when a lot of wealthy white males got killed. Suddenly we heard all about it from other sources than female advocacy groups, so it HAD to be true.

[batyatoon]

Well, yes, but by definition hate crimes all have somebody's definition of un-people as their targets.

If this bastard had shot up a gay bar, I grant you it probably wouldn't have been defined as terrorism, but it would very obviously have been a hate crime. And labeled as such. So why isn't this?

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

I've got a mouthful to say on my own journal about Sodini, and how he's simply the stink-cherry on top of the sundae of misogyny served up to women every day in tiny, digestible pieces.