SCOTUS Rules In Favor Of WBC and Fred Phelps

[filkertom]

Feeling conflicted here. It's entirely possible, perhaps even reasonable, to look upon this as a victory for free speech -- the old thing about "I hate what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it". This applies even to Phelps; no matter how much I rail about his hateful, evil message, I would not shut it down, even if I could. The notion of "acceptable" speech is about as bad as Fred's hate speech.

The problem is the chosen venue: funerals. The funerals of people whose families likely never imagined someone would protest them, especially for the ridiculous, bigoted, fatuous and self-serving reasons Phelps gives.

Phelps is an attention-seeking, scam-artist jerk. His "church" basically consists of his family, many of whom are lawyers. They go to the funerals of people who he loosely associates with his pet causes, they get a lot of publicity, they get money out of some of them by turning the anger of people who despise what they're doing into civil lawsuits and, eventually, the income that keeps WBC going.

It's a living.

Fred has taken it upon himself to condemn himself and his descendants to being among the most hated people in the country. He's not going to change anybody's mind, and I think he knows that.

Which makes me curious: What is his actual goal? What does he envision his legacy to be? How did he come to this path to get there? Why this, why now? Does he really believe any of this stuff, or is it all just noise and misdirection?

And, the one question I'm sure he'd ask: What if he's right?

Comments

[wednes]

Like most aggressively homophobic people, Phelps' "church" is a way for him to repent for his own gay thoughts. I know it's a huge cliche, but I think his self-hatred is so great (as is his ego) that he would really rather hurt countless strangers than admit his own gay feelings. Once he realized he was on TV and making money from the venture, he just sort of turned into that skid.

What infuriates me almost as much as Phelps himself is that he so clearly demonstrates the hypocrisy of rednecks who can't shut up about how "peaceful muslims should decry the actions of jihadists/terrorists." They never realize that assuming all Muslims are taliban sympathizers is just as ridiculous as assuming that all Christians are Fred Phelps. I tell you one thing, if Phelps was touting himself as a representative of MY religion, I'd be damn clear in assuring people that he does not speak for me.

WBC is not tax-exempt, is it? Geez, I hope not.

[filkertom]

From the look of a quick Google of "Westboro Baptist tax status", they are indeed tax-exempt. I'm dang sure ready for that little provision of the tax code to go away....

[louisadkins]

I think:
- His goal is money, and power.
- He doesn't give a damn about any legacy.
- He's an abusive bastard that is full of hatred and figured out how to make money and gather power from it.
- I don't know what he believes, at this point, but I think he worships at the shrine of the Mighty Dollar, first and foremost.
- If, somehow, he were "right" then I would gladly go to Hell, because I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a god that was like he portrays. Disgusting.

[filkertom]

I don't doubt you're right. I'm just... I guess the best word would be, "bemused" by his methods. Well, no, "mightily pissed off" would be closer to the mark. But -- does he really think he can gain power from this? Money, sure, but what power could he gain besides negative?

[smparadox.livejournal.com]

I think he truly believes that he is acting in accordance with his god's will. Likely he actually is doing his god's will, come to think of it - gods will what their creators make them to will, after all, and we are their creators and masters...

[shockwave77598.livejournal.com]

He's a jerk who found a way to make a living just by being a jerk to people.

What we need to figure out is how to turn the tables on him and make his asshattery cost money rather than make money. Perhaps having cemetaries put up signs stating that churches not present for burial services must pay a rental fee (big big number) to prostelyze on their property. After all, the cemetary is private property and they can charge for access in any way they wish. Just get his signature on the contract where 2 hours of use at some funeral costs a mere 10 ^6 dollars (where he's certain to miss the exponent, especially if other typos are on the contract.) He who lives by the court, shall die by the court.

[ruisseau.livejournal.com]

I *really* like this idea.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

As much as I loathe Phelps & crew, I have to think this was the right decision. The Court stressed that it was narrow; that it was legitimate for police to keep protesters 1,000 feet away from the funeral participants and institute other laws for the protection of the mourners, and that the WBC was obeying those laws in the instance they were sued for. What's more, the father of the deceased didn't sue till he was searching the web and ran across a nasty poem about his son on WBC's website. That's clearly a free speech matter -- anyone is allowed to write a nasty poem about anybody and put it up on their own website (or else us occasionally political filkers are in trouble). Most people famliar with the web have figured out that, if you only want to see positive things said about yourself, don't google on your name. Doesn't matter how nice you are, there will be something you won't like.

I'd personally be delighted if the entire membership of the Westboro Baptist Church got struck down by lightning out of a clear blue sky while they were holding one of these funeral protests. But I do think they have a right to hold them, so long as they keep their distance according to local laws.

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

My feeling is that we should wait until someone in his church (preferably Phelps himself) dies, then everyone who has ever been a victim of a Westboro protest show up en masse to do unto them as they have done unto others. After all, they wouldn't have any way to stop it.

As for why he's doing it, I'm guessing that it's money, pure and simple. As shockwave77598 said, he has found a way of being a jerk for a living. Beats working, right?

[admnaismith.livejournal.com]

The day of Phelps's memorial service is going to be the biggest Pride parade EVER!

[dornbeast.livejournal.com]

"What if he's right?"

For my part, I'll just cherry-pick Hebrews 11:1-6 to "prove" that I'm not going to please God. (Or, at least, not the one that Fred Phelps believes in.) With that as a given, I can "prove" that I'm better off not claiming any sort of belief in that particular deity.

(Using logic to prove anything in matters of religion is, in my opinion, a fool's game. I might as well try to determine the weight of a feather with a micrometer.)

[cathain.livejournal.com]

Or prove how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

"What if he's right?"

And what if all the air molecules in the room all moved into the corner furthest away from me at the same time? Theoretically, it's possible; but the actual likelihood of the two hypotheses is about the same.

[shsilver.livejournal.com]

The decision was 8-1 with Alito the dissenting voice. While I think Alito's dissent was based on the proper human factors, I think he was off base from a Constitutional factor.

[redneckgaijin.livejournal.com]

Which is different from Alito's other dissents only in that he was correct on human factors. }:-{D

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

He is right.
That's the problem.

I've found myself in weird discussions many times, because I come at it assuming Phelps is right. The Christian god does not like gay people. I've heard it in so many Christian churches I've lost count. Usually as "This is one more sin and God can FIX you." They generally don't say flat out that god hates us.

Nice thing is, there are more gods out there. And some of the like us. Some of them ARE us.

[shockwave77598.livejournal.com]

Ah, but the bible also claims Cheeseburgers are an abomination, not once or twice, but three times. I don't see Phelps or any other religious figure saying that God Hates McDonalds employees, picketing Burger King or advocating the murder of Wendy's night managers. And yet it's in the same book with the same condemnation.

Must be nice to be so knowing and powerful that one can cherry pick what words of your God are to be followed and what ones are not.

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

His actual goal is the same as that of much organized religion: MONEY. This is true of most actions which make no sense otherwise.

The SCOTUS decision is, of course, correct, as was Voltaire. The way to deal with this is to isolate and ignore them. Thankfully, the Patriot Guard already has a well-established protocol for this: They roll in on their motorcycles, get between "protesters" and funeral goers, obscure the one from the other utterly, and are generally indirectly obnoxious to the would-be disruptors (unlike my bikes, theirs tend towards the LOUD :) ... They make a point not to engage any of the sign-carriers, just to be in the right place at the right time.

As for Fredilicious Rex being right?

I decided long ago that I was endowed by That Which Created me with Brains, and that if said Entity was going to get upset with me for using them, I wanted no part of it. Which paradigm failed the Kantian Imperative (i.e. take the conclusion to its logical extreme), so I threw it out.

I'm much happier these days.

[cathain.livejournal.com]

I live in Kansas. Along with it's repressive, regressive, Republican government, Phill Kline, Kris Khobach and it's Creationist state board of education, Fred Phelps ranks up there in the top ten things I hate the most about this state. I'd much rather be living somewhere else (and hope to by the end of this year).
To date, the best (and funniest) attack on WBC has come from ANONYMOUS. When Shirley Phelps-Roper (looking gleefully insane in the video) went toe to toe on air with ANONYMOUS, they mounted an immediate cyber attack that took down WBC's website AS THE INTERVIEW HAPPENED; an attack that WBC ASKED for. They poked the tiger and the tiger responded.
This is significant on a number of levels. If anyone is a free speech advocate, it's ANONYMOUS. But, there are members of ANONYMOUS who fully believed that the initial posting on their board (which is an open board) stating that ANONYMOUS was going to target WBC was actually planted there BY WBC, in an attempt to get publicity. This the later denial and retraction of ANONYMOUS. But WBC wouldn't leave it there and arranged the on air interview.
I have some real questions about this. I know that WBC suffers from a collective sort of "Munchausen Syndrome". They have been caught spray painting graffiti on their own fences and calling the police and going through people's trash to create "attacks" on their own church and congregation for the purposes of creating litigation. But why take on ANONYMOUS? Do they really think they are going to create lawsuits out of this? Hell, not even the top security guy at HBGary Fed could figure out who they are (much to his dismay and the cost of his job). Is God going to reveal identities to them? Because without an identity there's not much point in suing.
These people are batshit insane in a way that rivals Heaven's Gate.

[tomreedtoon.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to mention the name - that would be called name-calling - but there was a certain guy who was the central cause of World War II in Europe. He did counterproductive and stupid things - things that his advisers told him were dead wrong - but he did them because he HAD to be right. These bad decisions hastened his end.

Phelps is like that. The money is only incidental, although it must be nice for him; I think his sole motivation is to prove he's right. He hasn't gathered a national following, and practically every sane person of every religion recognize that he's a megalomaniac. But he doesn't care, because in his mind, he's right.

[stormgren.livejournal.com]

So what you're saying is that we need to roll into his town with tanks and induce him to commit suicide in his bunker?

[misterseth.livejournal.com]

1. Fred being right. Truth is, he's a miserable old man, desperately in need of meds (preferably arsenic) who has manipulated and brainwashed his family over the years into preaching his hate.
2. The SCOTUS decision. I have no problem with the Justices decision. They are simply doing their job, which is to present an interpretation of the constitution for or against the case. I'm sure they went through every legal issue before making their decision. I am, of course against the perpertrators of this case (the WBC), but if they wouldn't bring it up, chances are, someone else would.
3. What is there actual goal? There is none. WBC IMHO are the humbug wizard, the false prophets, the rabble rousers, etc. Like all fundies, they are simply making fools of themselves. My real concern is that one day their rants will upset the wrong people.

[ravenclaw-eric.livejournal.com]

According to an article I read, Fred Phelps was an evil, hateful, abusive person a long time before he discovered the whole anti-gay thing. I know quite a few fundamentalists, and they detest him as much as anybody else---more, if anything, because they know that he makes them all look bad. I know fundamentalist pastors who ride with the Patriot Guard.

The title of the article is "Addicted to Hate," and you can find it up on the web at various places. It was based on interviews with people who Knew Him When, including several of his own children who're now estranged.

There's also an article at the SPLC website called "A City Held Hostage," about how the WBC has Topeka more-or-less buffaloed.

[laurel-potter.livejournal.com]

...several of his own children who're now estranged.

It's good to know that there are people who have escaped from him.

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

What if he's right?

Oh please, his God couldn't even save the baby at the end of 'Paranormal Activity 2'!

.
.
.

Er, "spoiler alert"?

[dlobok.livejournal.com]

I felt conflicted when this first went to trial, but honestly if Phelps had lost it would set a standard that could fuck with anyone.

On a happier note, I give you Nate Phelps - atheist, author, public speaker, LGBT activist - and estranged son of Fred Phelps. He has a section of his site that explains what it was like growing up in the Phelps home.

[laurel-potter.livejournal.com]

I responded to someone else above; I've wondered if there was anyone who had "escaped" from that "church". Thanks for the link.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

He's not right. I do not hate gay people. Or shrimp. [/Valentine Michael Smith]

As for the decision, lump me in with the rest of the people quoting Voltaire today.

[wildcard9.livejournal.com]

I feel like a idiot. Until I clicked that link, I was thinking of the gothic musical artist Voltaire, and didn't get the connection. I chalk this up to extra-long work days so I could start my MarsCon vacation tonight.

[tcgtrf.livejournal.com]

What most non-Christians do not understand is that Phelps, himself, (as is everyone who uses Leviticus to condemn homosexuality) cannot use the Old Testament as Divine Law to condemn any kind of behavior whatsoever, at least if he desires to be other than a Christian heretic....

By Christian doctrine, all of the Old Testament covenants were replaced by Jesus during his ministry. This is why Christians can eat cheeseburgers, work on Friday nights, and wear clothing made of two different materials without sinning.

As a matter of fact, there's little in the New Testament about the specifics of sin, since the assumption there is that there is no human capable of being good enough without the Divine Intervention of Jesus i.e.--everyone is fallen.

Tom Trumpinski

[alverant.livejournal.com]

That would have some credibility if it weren't for the fact that christians use elements from the old testament like:
The 10 Commandants
Noah's Flood
Genesis
Jonah and the whale/fish
Sodom and Gomorrah
Fall of Man/Original Sin
almost constantly. If the OT is replaced by the NT with the covenants, then anyone using the phrase "thou shall not kill" is a heretic. So that would make nearly all christians heretics.

[rickvs.livejournal.com]

I'd almost rather show up to Rev. Phelps' hypothetical funeral with a sign that said only, "Sorry for your loss". And if I meant that as an abridged version of "Sorry your dude died before he got his head out of his ass", I think I could avoid saying that out loud for the duration of the service.

Demonstrating how people should act at funerals -- at least if we wanna call ourselves adults, and walk around on our hind legs -- might bring the day closer that any remaining WBC members would realize the error of their ways. And for that goal, I could stifle my gag reflex for an hour or two... although frankly, I expect that church to disintegrate so quickly after the death of their leader that I'll be halfway surprised if any members show at all.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Basically. I'm not going to stoop to his level, no matter how satisfying it would be.

[zenturbo.livejournal.com]

On a related note, here's an interview with one of Fred's 'disowned' children. It's an interesting interview and gives you a lot of insight on the elder Phelps' mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXysH9LAEG0

[strredwolf.livejournal.com]

Lets turn the questions around.

What if he's right? What if God truly hates homosexuals?

He can't be right. If God hated homosexuals, why did he(she/it/etc) allow them to actually be born? So Phelps' clan is definitely in the wrong.

So what is his actual goal? That deserves an investigation, and any good investigation is started by following the money. They are getting money, right? Where is it going?

The thing is, according to the IRS (and thus the government), they have a fine line to walk to be considered a church. I would not be surprised that an IRS lawyer could successfully argue that a "church" that is solely comprised by a single family, who's actions compose primarily of peaceful protests and lawsuits, cannot be organized for a charitable activity (See Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3) and the IRS' own website on religious organization tax exceptions ()). Therefore, if they haven't paid taxes on the money they've received, they're looking very much at a tax fraud conviction.

BTW, not a lawyer. Don't ask me for advise, because all I can give is "See a lawyer."

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

If god created me in his image and I am an atheist, god is also an atheist.

[eustaciavye.livejournal.com]

The current working theory is that he doesn't actually have any religious beliefs along the lines of what he and his "church" say. Rather, he is trying to inflame people so they will do something to him that he can them sue them over, thus allowing him and his family to live in splendor off the proceeds of the law suit.

However, there is something else happening; every time these asses protest something, people donate money to the cause or the family. His asshattery is inspiring good works which I think is worthwhile. I hope someday that I do something great enough that he finds it worth his while to protest me.

[james-the-evil1.livejournal.com]

That would be believable if they lived in splendor, but they don't. They live in relatively modest surroundings and spend most f their time and money in service of their "ministry."

I think he's sincerely fanatical. And crazy.

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand it is important to support the First Ammendment, even for people whose speach is reprehensible. On the other hand it is unseemly and vulgar to protest at someone's funeral.

As a Christian I also feel it necessary to point out that most evangelical Christians who know about the WBC denounce it because of their tactics. We're supposed to talk about sin, of any variety, being wrong but we're also to talk about God's love for humanity and the sacrifice Jesus made to bring humanity back into God's grace.

[dement1a.livejournal.com]

I kind of hope nobody shows up at Fred Phelps's funeral.

I mean, nobody. As in, by the time he dies, I hope he's irrelevant, to everyone.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

That would be sweet. No one shows up. Maybe his family. No protesters, no homosexuals looking for some poetic justice, no one. And I hope is grave is undisturbed even though there are millions who would like to give him a beer (filtered through their kidneys). What would be best is that he lies forgotten and ignored.

It won't happen, but it would be nice if it did.