Murder Is NEVER The Right Thing To Do

[filkertom]

This is not about whether abortion is murder. I happen to believe it is not, but that's not pertinent right now.

Here in Michigan, a man was murdered yesterday for carrying graphic anti-abortion signs. The killer apparently didn't like the look of them.

Let me reiterate that, using the words of this diary at Daily Kos:

He didn't think it appropriate to show signs of aborted fetuses in front of a school so he murdered somebody in front of a school.

Apparently the killer had a grudge against the two men who were slain, and was on his way to kill a third.

There are a hell of a lot of people I disagree with. I would never, for the briefest instant, consider killing them. Or physically hurting them. Or even raising my voice in most cases. The nastiest violence I've ever really wanted to do to someone is a good bitch-slapping (on a few guys whose names rhyme with Tush, Brainy, Stove, Bum Smelled, and Pistol).

The entire point of free speech is protecting speech you don't agree with. I don't like anti-abortion protests, not because they say something I disagree with but because they tend to use harassment, intimidation, and illegal blockading of medical facilities to deny women legal medical procedures. They can say whatever the hell they want.

Violence is the line that should never be crossed. And it was yesterday, and two men died. And it doesn't matter that one of them was a passionate activist in favor of something I am very much against -- even though of course it does matter, because his passionate activism led to his death. It doesn't matter what he thought, what he felt, what he believed. No one will ever have the chance to change his mind, show him other possibilities, engage him in debate.

No one will ever hug him, hold him, tell him they love him, get him something for Christmas.

He's fuckin' dead. Because someone decided to kill him. For disagreeing.

Murder is always incredibly wrong, incredibly evil. This... somehow seems worse.

My deepest condolences go out to the families and friends of James Pouillon and Mike Fuoss. May you find some semblance of peace.

Comments

[liddle-oldman.livejournal.com]

It's a hell of a thing, to kill a man. Take away everything that he is, and everything he might have been.

Clint Eastwood, Unforgiven. That is to say, yes.

[mbumby.livejournal.com]

This... somehow seems worse.

Agreed.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I've been posting on this myself. In part, because one of the things that made me grind my teeth when Dr. Tiller was killed was the opposition side saying things like it was terrible, BUT, or if he just hadn't, THEN. Which is why it was so important to say that my opinion of what Mr. Pouillon was doing have nothing to do with it and there are no caveats. What happened was a terrible crime, period. No buts, no ifs, no footnotes.

The other part is that this *is* worse, because it's just made the already overcharged and overemotional dynamic outside clinics even more tense and likely to flare into further violence.

[fionn320.livejournal.com]

100% agreement here.

[capplor.livejournal.com]

The old saying comes to mind, the one about "I may disagree with what you have to say,but will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder if someone was confused about whose death that meant.

[ladypoetess.livejournal.com]

Yes, this.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

It's the difference between terrorism and satysgraha. Satyagraha says, "I believe so passionately in what I am saying that I am willing to suffer for it," and terrorism says, "I believe so passionately in what I am saying that I am willing to have YOU suffer for it." Aside from the fact that the latter is dealing with someone unconsenting, which has its own ethical issues, there is another, subtler problem with it: it carries fewer inherent restraints. You have to really think through whether and how much and why you believe something in order to choose to take suffering on yourself; none of that is necessary in order to inflict it.

[ororo.livejournal.com]

Could not have said it better.

[bemused-leftist.livejournal.com]

"Apparently the killer had a grudge against the two men who were slain, and was on his way to kill a third."

Er, that suggests that the killer had more of a motive than just the display of signs at the school.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

With respect to the other guy, at least, it's known that he did. I'm not sure if there was anything else to the guy displaying signs at the school. They'd had run-ins over the specific issue of the murdered man's anti-abortion protesting before, but it was on that topic; if there was a grudge I think it was related to that, not personal. The other one was personal, and I don't know if they have clue about the third guy he was intending to kill when they caught him.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

I really hate it when some idiot who claims to be on my side of a subject does something I loathe. It feels worse than when the opposition does something I loathe, because I expect them to turn up evil people once in a while.

I guess I need to remember that, while there may be trends or tendencies, evil can be found on any side of the spectrum.

[lariss.livejournal.com]

We always want to believe we're the ones in the white hats. And most of us are firmly convinced that we really ARE...whether it's true or not.


In the mental health field, we call it "insight." Can the person in question see where morality/reality cross paths with his/her actions and beliefs?


Makes you kinda want to sit down and do a quick Scruples Inventory, no?

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no kidding.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

Murder is never right. Which is to say, "wot you said, Tom"

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

When Dr. Tiller was murdered I felt the way I feel right now. It was wrong, and it was evil. Regardless of how I feel about something, whether that be abortion or using photos of a fetus on a protest sign, I would never raise my hand against someone just because I didn't agree with them.

[fayanora.livejournal.com]

I have an incredibly graphically violent imagination when I get really pissed, but I'm a pacifist by nature and get ill at the sight of blood. So while I can write about tying up Glenn Beck, amputating his legs and making him eat his own flesh, then vivisecting him and wearing his face as a mask while he chokes to death on his own blood, in reality I'd just roll my eyes and walk away.

[lariss.livejournal.com]

I think Glen Beck is his own punishment...



But that DOES sound fun.

[fayanora.livejournal.com]

LOL!

[admnaismith.livejournal.com]

Words fail me.

May the man's soul find peace.

[randwolf.livejournal.com]

The crime does not appear to have been politically motivated. The murderer committed a second murder which had no relation to abortion at all. But that's how the anti-abortion types are playing it. Grrrr (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/using-murder-as-excuse-to-advance.html).

[fredhuggins.livejournal.com]

I consider myself pro-choice. Not just on THIS issue, but in life in general. And for the life of me, I DON'T UNDERSTAND pro-lifers. I never have and likely never will. But the whole POINT of being pro-choice is that you don't HAVE to understand them. Go have your unplanned babies, leave our bodies alone, everyone's happy. Except the control freaks. But when are control freaks ever happy?

I consider it an airtight philosophy, but apparently this fucker wants to create his OWN mutant animal. A "pro-choicer" who strips his fellow man of the right to ever choose again. Ain't THAT the ultimate zen riddle.

Just consider this, and take it as you will: if this abhorrent murderer had been aborted in the first place, the country wouldn't be short two choicemakers today. But try explaining that to the protesters and suddenly YOU'RE the crazy one.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

Pro-Lifers are afraid that someone will abort the next coming of Jesus, because apparently their god is stupid enough to knock up someone who'd abort an unwanted pregnancy.

And they also think women need to be punished for having sex. Even if they are raped, because obviously they were asking for it, since men are completely unable to resist their sexual urges in any way, shape or form. Even incest victims aren't excepted by some, because barely-pubescent girls are just SO attractive to members of their own family that the males just NEED to stick their dicks in them.

I often want to ask people who do those demonstrations how many children they have adopted, since that seems to be an acceptable response to an unwanted pregnancy to at least some of them.

I bet the answer would be "zero" 99 times out of 100.


It's shit like this that makes me wish I could get fixed, so I never have to worry about being forced to birth a child.

[realinterrobang.livejournal.com]

I bet the answer is zero more often than 99 times out of 100. I'm willing to bet it's more like 999 999 times out of 1 000 000. After all, as they think, why should they have to pay for someone else's immoral behaviour?

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

I was being generous... and now I'm curious if anyone does have those statistics.

That said, the guy who got shot didn't deserve to die for expressing his point of view, no matter how vulgarly he did it.

Slapped around maybe (Tom's a better man than me) but not killed.

And despite my opinion of his opinion, there are people who loved him and are very upset right now.

[fredhuggins.livejournal.com]

Asking them won't do any good. A human will lie and cover their tracks if it means their precious ego won't hurt. But if I could read their minds, I'd try to determine how many of these Moral Christians (TM) would give up the fight if we compromised and agreed to only abort the GIRL fetuses.

I'd venture about 72%.

And believe it or not, I think your 1% adoption rate isn't giving these people enough credit. Not everyone is a hypocrite. I'd guess more like 1.5%. Maybe 1.7%. 2% is pushing it...but I GUARANTEE YOU those that did got immediately disappointed when they found themselves stuck with a little girl they couldn't even play catch with. It'll be AT LEAST fifteen years before she'll be useful enough to give us a good old-fashioned MALE Christ-baby...and if she gives birth to another girl, like the idiot she is, we'll have to wait at least ANOTHER fifteen years. It's aggravating, you know?

And when some of these Christ-baby-boys grow up to be serial killers instead, hoo boy, these Christian crusaders had NOTHING to do with that. Must be those pro-choice punks and their bad influence...

[smittythesmith.livejournal.com]

That was hateful.

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

So... Think this will be enough to convince them that we're not "anti-gun"?

.
.
.

Yeah, me neither.

[bryanp.livejournal.com]

Well said.

[joshuwain.livejournal.com]

It's like people are being baited by the farthest, most whacked-out, loud-mouths of those they disagree with into another civil war. This has to be resolved -as difficult and impossible as it seems- by rational discourse. Anything less is just going to lead to an escalation of bloodshed and tears.

[violinsontv.livejournal.com]

Honey, I am sorry for the family and I don't think it's right.

And I know it's just going to make everything tougher, but for God's sake what else is new?

No matter what we do or how much sympathy we show or what we say, it's food for the Wurlitzer. If we *blink* the wrong way it's food for the Wurlitzer.
You *know* that.

I was just driving the five year old to get her first library card the other day when I suddenly caught my breath and realized--I was on Platt Road, not Carpenter, on a Saturday with my daughter in the car. My neck stiffened. Why? Because there is some sort of clinic/birth control provider/whatever not far away and protestors do come out on a regular basis. Big dudes, almost always men, in sunglasses, with huge pictures of bloody mutilated fetuses. And I'd forgotten and if my kid saw it I'd have to explain....

But they are on a public sidewalk and they have the right, so I mostly take Carpenter Road on weekends.

Do I believe in their rights to free speech? Absolutely. Would I like to be free to travel whatever street I want without worrying about exposing my kid to horrifying violent images? Sure would. Do I ever have fantasies about letting my car jump the curb? Yes, I do. Have I ever done it? Hell no.

You know, as I'm writing this, I do feel like apologizing--to one person. I feel like apologizing to Bayushisan, because he has never been anything but civil, classy and gentlemanly as he posts on his own journal and to us, even when people have gotten really emotionally upset.

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

There's no need to apologize. I've had far worse things said to me in my life than anything that's happened here or at other places I've posted. I understand that this can be a very emotionally charged issue, and I try to say what I believe without sounding like a jerk. I'm not sure I always succeed but at least people know I'm trying to be honest with them about how I feel and think about the issues.

For the record I don't agree with showing those signs. I think it's just shock tactics and shows an extreme lack of class and decorum. While I am on the pro-life side of the argument I never advocate violence to anyone. Peaceful protest is one thing, showing bloody fetuses and the like are designed to provoke and cause a commotion. It's not right and it's not my style. Neither is it right to murder people, whether that person be an abortion doctor or a protester.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

I know, I know. I'm just amazed at how crazy everything has become in the past ten years, and especially the past two. At last I understand, to a small extent, those who yearn for "the good old days". But my good old days included people being willing to at least occasionally listen to each other, disagree without violence, and consider something like a Common Good. But then, I also remember a news media that wasn't entirely devoted to obfuscation and triviality and perpetuating outright lies.

[bryanp.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately the media reports based on what they perceive will increase ratings, which leads to all sorts of sensationalism. My favorite example is the way they report crime. The overall violent crime rate in the US has been steadily declining for the past 35 years, but you'd never believe it from watching the news.

[fredhuggins.livejournal.com]

Sometime, just for scientific evaluation, I'd like to crack open a human skull and determine how much of the "mind" within is devoted to unique, individually-realized thoughts and opinions, and how much is copy/pasted from what the man in the suit on the magic box told 'em to think.

You can't change minds, you can't change the media. Life is so permanently and irrevocably fucked up that it's hard for me to justify being pro-it.

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

Yes, definitely.

And in the middle of all of this, there is a little voice at the back of my mind that keeps whispering at me that the nutjobs won't see it that way. When they kill someone, it's "The Wrath Of God". No matter whether we say murder is always wrong, they are not going to hear it. Of course this is another one of those "Something ought to be done" speeches waiting to happen. *sigh*

[bayushisan.livejournal.com]

Something else to consider here, and it's something I feel needs to be said by someone who is a practicing Christian.

The Bible says Thou Shalt Not Kill. There are no qualifiers, no mention of "unless the person you're killing is bad" just Thou shalt NOT kill. I'm afraid that's a message that's being lost on too many people.

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

Yes, including many "practicing christians". And even if there were qualifiers such as you mention, who decides if someone is "bad"? The inquisition? I don't think so.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

The bible also has a laundry-list of the types of people who should be put to death... Adulterers, homosexual men, non-believers... "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" "a man who lies with another man as with a woman shall be stoned to death, for they have both done a disgusting thing"

So the commandments are NOT exactly hard and fast. Especially that one.

For the record, the translation from the original reads more like "Thou Shall Not MURDER".

I may be an atheist now, but at one time in my life I was considering seminary school... until I remembered I'm a girl, which means I wasn't allowed to go.

[fredhuggins.livejournal.com]

Oh, sky cake...

[lariss.livejournal.com]

Oh... I have a new funny!

[alverant.livejournal.com]

As George Carlin said, "It's all about who is doing the killing and who is getting killed."

[catlin.livejournal.com]

There is question about the Witch one... Jewish folk translate it as Poisoner not witch

[palenoue.livejournal.com]

Bible also says "Thou shalt not bear false witness" but that hasn't slowed them down even a tiny bit.

I can't remember when it was, but at some point early on while I was attending catholic school I realized the bible was the world's oldest rorschach test. Watch what people do with it and you'll see their true nature.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

That's why I tend to avoid people who use the words from that (or any other) holy-book as a justification for evil acts I'm pretty sure they wanted to commit anyway.

[kanemaker.livejournal.com]

Actually the phrase Thou Shall not Kill is a mistranslation.In hebrew it reads Thou Shall not Commit Murder.An entirely different thing.At least I hope it is otherwise all we combat veterans are doomed.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I find it hard to feel sorry for him. For decades the pro-choice crowd has had to put up with terrorist tactics used against them. And 99% of the time, the criminal actions of the anti-abortion groups is downplayed. The media refused to call it terrorism out of fear it would offend the conservative christian viewing audience. When Tiller was assassinated about all we hard from anti-abortionists were "Yeah, we're sorry he's dead. *wink wink* But he had it coming." Abortion is legal and the pro-choice crowd has used the law to protect itself. The anti-abortion groups often ignore the laws when they're inconvenient.

Well guess what, someone decided he had enough and chose to fight back. Someone got tired of turning the other cheek and chose to give the anti-abortionists a taste of their own illegal medicine. One of their own was murdered with the same callousness as Dr.Tiller. In this one case, the tables have turned. Now instead of abortion doctors having to worry about getting murdered for doing their legal jobs, the protesters have that worry. The question is, will this lead to a moment of empathy and they'll tone things down, or will they chose to to escalate their actions and show their true colors.

The tragedy is, this could be a case of bad timing. The murderer might have a personal reason to kill unrelated to abortion. It's just that at the time the protester was carrying a sign. Fortunately for the anti-abortionists it happened the way it did so they could complain about being "victimized".

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Allowing I agree that he should not die for it...

Personally, the vile fetus signs, and cars, should be no more protected speech then porn. If you can't drive up and down the highschool with a graphic sex picture, then fetus should not be there either.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

No no silly, this is 'Murka!

Sex is evil and wrong and horrible ad nobody should ever do it or be unashamed of it. (And anyone who enjoys it should be outcast or punished severely!)

But violence and gore is A-OK and ALWAYS permitted!

(I cannot roll my eyes hard enough to express my feelings for this viewpoint)