Okay, THIS Should Generate Some Interesting Discussion

[filkertom]

Peter David's Fan/Pro Bill Of Rights.

Thoughts?

Comments

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

Read it from Peter's site the other day. I think he's made some very good points. As someone with nearly 30 years of convention security, crowd control and guest escort experience I understand and have seen examples of the events that would cause him to write each of his points. I think there are few more points that need to be added to the PRO side of the equations, but this could be simply cause he hasn't encountered them yet but over all, I would be happy if a con ran this outline in their program book

[madrona.livejournal.com]

I agree that it's full of good points, but could use a little more on the pro side.

Like: if you're doing a reading, try to make sure it doesn't take longer to read your selected work than the length of time you have the room for.

[wingus.livejournal.com]

It all sounds good to me, and pretty much boils down to your icon up there at the very base of things.

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

I loved the whole thing; I laughed out loud at the airhorns and the Ellison Exacerbation (have I ever told you the story of the time I saw Ellison rendered completely speechless?).

The only thing I would want to add, if I were adding things, would be a few more suggestions for dealing appropriately with people -- fans or pros -- with disabilities other than mobility. (Examples: don't pet the service dog; don't step in front of a moving blind person; don't turn away from the deaf person you're speaking to. Someone who does these things isn't necessarily an asshat, but may just not know any better.)

[mimiheart.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm glad at least elevator protocol was included, though I wish it were easier to see.

[emiofbrie.livejournal.com]

3) Attendees have the right to be able to read, with no effort, the badges of other attendees. Appropriate place for badges to be worn is either around the neck on a lanyard or in the upper left or right of one’s shirt. Do not place your badge at hip level. No one needs or wants to be made uncomfortable staring at your crotch.

I admit...when I was wearing badges according to this, some used it as an excuse to stare at my chest O.o

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I like lanyards. They put the badge under my National Geographic-esque bustline and above my crotch.

But yeah, staring is going to be a problem,

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

My name (both my fandom name and my real one, though they aren't the same) is three letters long. If they can't manage to read it in under five seconds, something's going on.

[danceswithlife]

This threw me for a loop. I see badges as proof that I paid to attend and am allowed to get into things--not necessarily as a way of identifying me to anyone who cares to glance at it. Probably naive of me.

I like the move to lanyards--I didn't wear a badge with a pin on my chest cause I got poked, and that didn't happen when I put it at my belt line.

[stormgren.livejournal.com]

I actually don't like this one. Wearing lanyards is rather uncomfortable for me (can't help feeling strangled), and not every shirt I wear I want to potentially put holes in, if the badge gets snagged on something (which happens surprisingly often while volunteering)

A carabiner clip and split-ring work amazingly well for clipping most badges to a belt-loop, toward the side of my hip.

If someone is that uncomfortable looking at my badge at that level, they could always, you know, ask to read it, or just ASK ME WHAT MY NAME IS.

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

People with screaming babies get first dibs? How about, NO. How about, people with screaming babies take little Kaylee-Zoe or Dawson the hell out of the room, immediately? Aw, you missed an autograph session - but isn't that what you signed on for when you became a parent? The fact that no, you really can't continue to live your life exactly the same way as before you had kids?

I've seen enough solipsistic parents beaming as their kids scream, yell, talk or whine straight through someone's filk concert and I'm tired of pro-natalist crap. And I would totally not put it past some fans to pinch their toddlers to take cuts in line under this rule.

[ladysmith.livejournal.com]

As a parent, I have to agree with this. There is NO REASON to make your child miserable to get an autograph. That little person is more important than anything else. Period. If your child is screaming, it is time for you to leave.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

I have to agree. I was at a panel which was pretty much ruined because a father brought his screaming brat who kept running around making noise.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Thirded. Maybe the kid isn't old enough to know better -- but the parents are. Most people who attend cons with small children have a spouse/SO or friends available; either get someone else to mind the kid, or get someone else to stand in the line for you.

This is even more aggravating with panels, where Theater Rules should apply.

[kirylyn.livejournal.com]

as someone who rents a scooter at most cons because I can't walk far or for long, yeah, HEY the elevator rule. I was at D*C one year and had to wait over an hour just to go down one floor because dicks would hog the elevator to go down one floor when the escalator was right around the corner. if I could have taken the escalator, I would have!!

one con, there was a lovely service animal wearing her vest and SOOO many people kept running up to her and screaming in her face and trying to pet her (tho to be fair, people knowing how to act around service animals in general seem to a problem)

I've had people trip over my crutch, fall over my scooter, I've given up on dealer's rooms because I can't get in there anymore due to the aisles being so narrow.

[alverant.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how much a con can do about that. The convention I'm part of has had our current and previous chair scooter-bound so we're sensitive about the difficulties. The con-goers however, not so much. I can see mentioning it in the program book, but I'm not sure how many people actually read it.

As for the dealer's room, that's more of what room is chosen and while I've seen wide aisles, but I don't know how much you need for a scooter.

[jenk]

It also depends on how it's being run. One large area convention had a dealer coordinator for a few years who would patrol with a tape measure to enforce the official aisle width, and the room was a LOT easier to navigate those years. After she quit the dealers returned to "slightly" adjusting their tables to expand their space, and it became more crowded.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

The elevator protocol does seem to be oddly missing from this bill of rights.

[palenoue.livejournal.com]

Maybe if you had an inflatable Dalek people would get out of your way, or at the very least it would cushion the impact when someone walks into you while looking at the dealers display. This happens to me every convention, often right after they've bought pointy metal things.

http://www.geekosystem.com/dalek-car/

[ldyerzsie.livejournal.com]

It's bad form to pet or interact with ANY previously unknown dog without asking the person holding the leash first. That's just common sense and I don't feel sorry for someone who gets bitten when they don't follow that practicw.

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

This entire recording business needs to be explored further. I have no problem with tapers in filk; where I have a problem is idiots who think it's OK to post a musical performance of copyrighted material on Youtube without knowledge or permission of the performer. People who do that ought to be horsewhipped. Posting copyrighted material without permission is illegal. Even without copyright as an issue it's tacky and possibly illegal as well in some cases.

[madrona.livejournal.com]

Pro has the responsibility to state their recording/sharing policies at the beginning of their concert, fan has the responsibility to abide by these, late-comers should count on not recording?

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

Do I have to state I have a policy of not being whacked over the head with a baseball bat before a panel? If I don't, am I partly reponsible? If someone is going to publish copyrighted material, they need to get permission first. I've had to ask youtube to take down unapproved videos a couple of times. In my opinion, those who posted them should have been arrested and tried.

[darksunlight.livejournal.com]

Why? They're not making money from them, and they aren't taking money from you. Hell the only reason I'm a fan of Tom Smith here is because someone linked me to a youtube of him playing 'Boy and his frog' Do you also feel people should not be able to make videos of themselves singing popular songs?

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

Lots of reasons:
1. Maybe the video in question is of poor quality, cuts off part of a song, or does not present me well. I should have a right to approve or disapprove.
2. Tom has licensed his work, IIRC, through creative commons. I have not.
3. In the case of a professional or aspiring professional musician, if the video in question is a cover of a copyrighted song, publication on youtube could give the copyright owner grounds to deny a mechanical license for release of said song on a commercial recording.
4. Yes, there is massive copyright violation all over the internet. Some of those violated are quite upset about it, and regularly search youtube and request that videos of unlicensed performances of their songs be taken down. This is why, sometimes, videos that are there one day are gone the next. Some of those who are violated don't seem to mind.
5. My opinion, your opinion, or anyone else's opinion, doesn't change the copyright law.
6. Posting a homemade video of almost anyone doing almost anything without their permission is just flat out rude, insensitive and obnoxious. I thought one underlying purpose of this whole mess was to offer guidance and direction to rude, insensitive and obnoxious fans/pros in an attempt to help them improve their behavior.
7. The rules that apply to public figures - a politician giving a campaign speech, for example - should not apply to ordinary people in their everyday activities. I consider myself to be an ordinary person, not a public figure.
8. How would you like it if I managed to film a video of you, at your absolute worst, edited it to make you appear to be an object of ridicule, posted it on youtube, and it went viral and got millions of hits? Can you see how this kind of thing could lead people to bouts of depression, or possibly trigger a suicide? How would you feel if you posted a video of someone on youtube, and they subsequently committed suicide and left a note blaming your video?

[darksunlight.livejournal.com]

Number 8 has absolutely no bearing on the current discussion. And, sadly, you ARE a public figure, whetehr you like it or not.

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

I completely disagree.

I am not a lawyer, but I do know that photographers have to get model release forms signed before publishing or selling photos of people. Seems to me like the same law probably applies to youtube videos. I'm not sure what the laws are with regard to public figures, but I'm pretty sure I'm not one most of the time.

Just because everyone on the net is doing something illegal doesn't make it any less illegal, or annoying to those who are victimized.

[phecda.livejournal.com]

And this is why I have absolutely no idea of who you are, and so would have little inclination to see you (I'm assuming) perform.

Youtube is the new word of mouth. Use it.

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

Your information is incorrect (I do have vids on youtube and on my facebook page), and your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Perhaps you are not the sort of audience I want my music to reach. Do you attend filk cons? That's where I find one group who seems to respond positively to my meager efforts at creating noise.

[phecda.livejournal.com]

While I don't make a habit of attending the filk only cons, (and since I no longer date the woman who knows *everyone* in filk), I don't know who's who as well anymore. And certainly wouldn't have recognized you as lemmozine. However, I've run conventions, and am currently helping launch a new convention in North Carolina (of which Tom Smith is headlining our music track). So, while not necessarily your target audience, I am one of those people that helps you reach your target audience.

So, I am glad you have a youTube presence and I could see wanting to have non-flattering videos removed, or if someone is not crediting you. But if a fan is putting up a decent video of you, it's free advertising and it's complimentary that someone even bothered to do so.

[saganth.livejournal.com]

Great BoL. However, I tried posting a couple comments, and neither one has shown up. And one was a little long. Is there some kind of posting delay?

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking about that essay that Harlan Ellison wrote for Asimov's a few years ago.

[lemmozine.livejournal.com]

The one that's called something like "You don't know me; I don't know you," or was that in F&SF?

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

You might be thinking of something else that appeared in F&SF, but as I remember correctly, the essay I'm thinking of was titled "Xenogenesis."