Post-Debate Brouhaha

[filkertom]

Have at it. Who won, who lost, who screwed up.

Comments

[nuveena.livejournal.com]

So, according to the President, all those tech workers who got laid off just didn't have enough book learnin'?

Em, no.

Nice dodge on Roe v. Wade, too, Georgie.

All in all, not too bad for Kerry. I'm becoming guardedly optimistic that there's a chance of him taking the prize.

Of course, I'm also rooting for the Red Sox, so take that for what it's worth..

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

Yeah that was one place where I felt Kerry could have made a great point and he missed it.

I kept wanting to jump right on the stage and say directly to Bush:
Ok, so tell me Mr. President, what sort of "training for the future" or "community college" do you recommend for my husband who has a computer sciences degree from Yale, your alma mater I might add (though his grades were a bit better than yours). He worked in high tech steadily for over 20 years until after being laid off he couldn't find work for over a year. Now he's gone from 6 figures to $20 an hour and he doesn't get benefits anymore so we're paying for our own health insurance which is costing us $800 a month, which we really can't afford. We've gone from being upper middle class to skirting poverty because of that. So - what training does he need please?

IDIOT! God I want that man out.

I'll save my other comment...

Heh

[wormquartet.livejournal.com]

Roe V. Wade was just one of the questions Bush didn't bother answering.

I started making sound effects whenever a question came rocketing at Bush and he swerved out of the way with varying degrees of deftness, much to the annoyance of my wife.

Oh, and on a bit of a tangent, Bush's continual defense of the abysmal failure that is "No Child Left Behind" is a joke. It's so obviously designed to make Bush look like he cares about education rather than to actually solve any problem. Putting more money into testing isn't an answer...putting more money into TEACHING is an answer. Plus, the program actually penalizes schools for having children with learning disabilities. These children have to take the same tests as the rest of the kids, which has got to be frustrating, and at the school my Mom teaches at, the learning disabled kids were found to be the biggest "minority" group in the school, and thus their tests were more heavily weighted to make sure that minorities weren't being "left behind." Needless to say, they didn't do too well...so Mom's school was found to be non-compliant. Gotta love it.

-=ShoEboX=-

Re: Heh

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

Right with you there on NCLB. My mom's an LD teacher (preschool/kindergarten) and she thinks NCLB is one of the worst thing to ever come down the pike. I cannot count the number of times that I have had discussions with people and then checked with my mum to see that, yes, LD kids take the same tests, and are graded on the same curve.

Nyar!

Oh, and don't forget this hypothesis. Let's say you have four non-LD minority students. 3 of them pass the test, one of them doesn't. You have a failure rate of 25%. Now, the next year, you only have three students of the same minority. Two pass, one doesn't. You now have a failure rate of 33%, higher than last year's rate. Your school can now be found to be in trouble or non-compliant (can't remember which) because not only does the school have to improve, no segment of the school can fail to improve.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, because, you see, people with Master's degrees like me aren't having any trouble finding jobs right now. Oh, wait, what's that? I'm still unemployed? Never mind, then.

As this is a public forum, I'll refrain from calling the President what I want to call him. But this little video sums it up pretty well: http://www.filmstripinternational.com

-Marianna

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

I was unemployed for eight months. With two bachelor's degrees and a master's. In science, even.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

As this is a public forum, I'll refrain from calling the President what I want to call him.

Well, it's my forum, so, let's see: Would "stupid lying illiterate incoherent brick-headed stubborn helps-his-rich-friends fuck-the-poor murdered-thousands-in-Iraq can't-plan-for-shit red-faced indignant stuttering Chimpy McAssWipe" be anywhere close to the mark for a start?

[partiallyclips.livejournal.com]

See, holding Dubya responsible for the current state of the economy is essentially spurious. When a stock bubble bursts like it did in the year before this term, then you're just in for some hurt and a long recovery. If anything, Bush has done long-term damage trying to pump money into this economy to minimize this issue in the now. I have no doubt that we'd be worse off in terms of immediate economic numbers right now if Gore had been elected.

That's because Gore would have acted (more) responsibly and wouldn't have run up the nation's plastic to make it look like we're okay.

Anyway, I am a match for any Bush detractor you know. He's given America a thousand reasons to vote against him, and at least 4 reasons to impeach him. But the fact that I can't find a job and you can't find a job and Tom can't find a job has very little to do with anything Dubya did in office.

If this election has to be about holding the man responsible for something, that something should be "starting a hopelessly messy war that we didn't have to fight."

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

Even if you are right his glib response that American workers "just need more training" was stupid and insensitive. At least it seemed so to me.

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

Except we know how to deal with a depression/recession like this one. The Carter/Reagan recession was one that could be dealt with with monetary policy and interest rate cuts. But this recession is shaped a lot more like the Great Depression. What it needed was influx of money and jobs. Think the WPA and the other Depression-era programs. What we got...wasn't that, which is one of the reasons that jobs are still sucking big time.

We knew how to fix this recession and Bush wouldn't do it.

[arensb.livejournal.com]

I was under the impression that what really ended the Great Depression wasn't the WPA, but WWII. And you've got to admit, Dubya's given us war.

Never mind that the war in Iraq is a lot more like Viet Nam than WWII, or that Dubya is no Roosevelt.

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

If there hadn't been WWII, we would have had a rough-ish ride of swinging between rampant inflation and depression before settling down and paying down the debt, and we wouldn't have had the prosperity boom that was the Fifties, true.

Still, I'd rather have a government in deficit with lots of people working and additional infrastructure in this country than a government in deficit and, well...

[arensb.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I remember Republicans complaining about "tax-and-spend Democrats", but I'd rather have that than "don't tax but spend like a drunken sailor anyway".

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

I, for one, am damn tired of the "tax-and-spend-liberal" theme. You know what that means, right-wingers? That means that you pay your membership fee in society, your fair share based on your ability to pay.

And in return you get:

• schools
• police protection
• fire protection
• street construction and maintenance
• purity standards for air, water, food, and drugs
• trade negotiation with foreign countries
• armed forces to defend us
• an air traffic control network that keeps planes from flying into each other
• a shitload of regulations intended to keep everybody safer
• another shitload of regulations intended to keep corporations from producing overpriced, shoddy work, and from treating their employees as slave labor
• a legal and electoral system that at least tries to protect your rights, and to hold our government accountable to the will of the people
• programs designed to keep our fellow citizens, especially the elderly and the poor, from illness, homelessness, and starvation
• promotion and protection of the arts, without which we would be a cultureless mass of drones who work till we drop
• four and two-thirds shitloads of other useful, or at least well-intended legislation that a person cannot do him- or herself

Yes, there are far too many pork programs and pet projects and local initiatives, on both sides of the aisle. But the basic problem that Democrats have gotten into over the years with higher taxes has to do with a silly desire to play within the rules, i.e., if you don't have the money, you can't get something, therefore get the money. Repubs, for the most part, don't seem to have this "problem", and are more than happy to spend other people's money to excess.

And Grover Norquist and his slimy ilk want "tax reform" because they wish to privatize everything. They want this for precisely one reason: That way, they get the money.

[arensb.livejournal.com]

I was going to write a longer rant in response to this, but instead, I'll just share this link:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/ff/taxingspendingupdate.html
which lists, for each state, the amount of federal money that state receives for each tax dollar sent to Washington. So if the number is > $1.00, the state is being subsidized; if the number is < $1.00, the state is subsidizing other states.

The top ten states are:

1. North Dakota: $2.03
   
2. New Mexico: $1.89
   
3. Mississippi: $1.84
   
4. Alaska: $1.82
   
5. West Virginia: $1.74
   
6. Montana: $1.64
   
7. Alabama: $1.61
   
8. South Dakota: $1.59
   
9. Arkansas: $1.53
   
10. Hawaii: $1.52
    

The bottom ten states are:

41. California: $0.81
    
42. New York: $0.81
    
43. Colorado: $0.79
    
44. Massachusetts: $0.79
    
45. Illinois: $0.77
    
46. Minnesota: $0.77
    
47. Nevada: $0.73
    
48. New Hampshire: $0.68
    
49. Connecticut: $0.64
    
50. New Jersey: $0.62
    

Count the red states and the blue states, and draw your own conclusions.

[r-caton.livejournal.com]

More like our business with Northern Ireland, I thought.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure this administration's support of outsourcing technology jobs has had an awful lot to do with people being unable to find jobs in technology.

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

The thing that most PLEASED me that Kerry said was that he mentioned our "separate but UNequal" educational system. I commented on this in my own blog here if anyone is curious to read more.

All in all I thought Kerry said things that made sense and I thought he said them clearly and forcefully without sounding like he was shrill. I thought he did a great job and yeah, I'm hopeful too but also pessimistic about "the average" voter's response. sigh... I doubt someone who supports Bush will be swayed by the debate. If they've made up their minds they'll probably stick with him.

[arensb.livejournal.com]

The most outrageous moment, IMHO, was when Dubya denied saying that he doesn't consider Osama bin Laden important. As far as I can remember, Kerry quoted him word for word. Fortunately, the blogosphere has already pulled out the video of Bush's original statement. When will politicians (and other high-powered people) learn that in the age of information, you're going to be called on this sort of thing?

In one tiny respect, Dubya's better than his father: he acknowledged that non-worshipers can be patriotic Americans. Maybe someone clued him in to the fact that 7% of the voters in the 2000 election were atheists and "No religion" folks.

And in an ideal world, James Randi or Penn and Teller would've been part of the security team to make sure the candidates weren't wired. Or, if the debate rules didn't disallow wires, they could've provided the media with an audio feed of Karl Rove's radio transmission.

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

CNN followed up the debate with a video of the interview where the Drooling Moron said exactly what Kerry said he said.

I thought it was closely matched -- Kerry wasn't at his best -- but CNN's post-debate telephone snap poll put it at 52% Kerry, 39% Drooling Moron. Hey, better than I thought!

The 25 Undecideds (how in the name of Teddy-effin'-Roosevelt can anyone be undecided at this stage?) that CNN had here in Columbus broke thusly: 11 will vote Kerry, 7 will vote Drooling Moron, and 7 still can't make up their minds.

Um, undecideds? Your choice is between a member of the human species, and a lump of coal. What's to decide?

[arensb.livejournal.com]

I thought it was closely matched -- Kerry wasn't at his best -- but CNN's post-debate telephone snap poll put it at 52% Kerry, 39% Drooling Moron. Hey, better than I thought!

Yeah, I thought so too. But consider that Dubya looked good simply by not uttering any memorable Bushisms (like "and neither do we" or "practice their love", or even "You forgot Poland!").

how in the name of Teddy-effin'-Roosevelt can anyone be undecided at this stage?

Apparently some people will say anything to get on TV. Even that they're still undecided.

Your choice is between a member of the human species, and a lump of coal. What's to decide?

Obviously you're not from Pennsylvania. They take coal seriously there :-)

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

The Boss said it best the other night in the finale of the Concert For Change: "If you're still undecided -- it's October 11th! What the hell are you waiting for?"

[jbrewer.livejournal.com]

Something you should try....

http://www.sixdegreesofvoting.com/?ref=2706&mac=7f3bda063603adf3123cda2ee6a495ee

[skull-leader3.livejournal.com]

Ooooooooooo, he likes to dance the lil' sidestep,
Now they see him, now they don't, he's come and gone,
And ooooooooooo, he likes to sweep around the widestep,
Cut a lil' swath and lead the people on...

Fortunately the people are seeing right through the floorshow Dubya's putting on...or at least I hope they do.

[nuveena.livejournal.com]

And what is WITH the Cheneys getting all wound up today about Kerry mentioning Mary Cheney? Aside from the fact that Mary is 1) an adult, 2) active in the campaign, 3) about as far out of the closet as you can get, 4) a gay activist, and 5) Kerry didn't say anything offensive about her, Dick Cheney brought the subject of her sexual orientation up during a rally in August?

[janet-coburn.livejournal.com]

...And so did Edwards, in the VP debate, which actually prompted Cheney to utter some kind words.

My guess is that Lynn hasn't been in the news lately and was just thrilled that she had a "family matter" that she could spout off about. In other words, a knee-jerk reaction: "If they bring up a family member, assume it's a smear."

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

I think it's a good deal more basic than that. I think they're ashamed of her, and terrified of her, and they do their best not to mention her except when they trot her out to show how veddy, veddy "gay tolerant" they are.

Mary came out years ago, she works for gay rights, she works on her father's campaign, and, quite frankly, I thought Kerry's use of her as an example was spot-on. He didn't slam her at all; he said, in effect, it goes all the way to the top, and it's not their fault. He is, I think, wisely trying to strengthen this as a discrimination issue. Would George deny rights to his business partner's daughter because of a consentual activity that harms no one?

[wayward-va.livejournal.com]

They are afraid of what her existence does to them with their conservative christian base. IIRC what Lynne Cheney said was that it was a "dirty trick to try and hurt them with religious voters." The only way they could see it like that is if that's what they have worried about all along.

I agree that Kerry was respectful and tactful. If he was making her part of his stump speech repeated over and over and over then I'd be a bit appalled. But as a response to a direct question I'm not bothered.

-----wayward

[janet-coburn.livejournal.com]

This is how CNN reported it:

"Mrs. Cheney made clear she thought Kerry had crossed a line into family privacy when she introduced her husband to a supportive crowd of 800 after a debate-watching party in the Pittsburgh suburb of Coraopolis.

"Now, you know, I did have a chance to assess John Kerry once more and now the only thing I could conclude: This is not a good man," she said.

"Of course, I am speaking as a mom, and a pretty indignant mom. This is not a good man. What a cheap and tawdry political trick."

She was not more specific."

If there was any mention of a speciic constituency, they did not say so. Based on this report, it was a "straw man attack," (straw-person, if you like), but not an appeal to the religious voters, except with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge angle.

[jedilora.livejournal.com]

http://www.radioactivepanda.com/index.htm

The last two strips have been...rather more political than the usual, but it's the last panel of the current one that kills me in the heartstrings.

(posted here because it the last political semi-open thread)

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Eeyowtch.

As the song says, there is always something (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) there to remind me (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/).

Impeach. Impeach. Impeach.