Coming Out For Their Own

[filkertom]

You guys know I have deep, deep problems with organized religion. But now and then I am reminded... well, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Commenting in Atrios, "rorschach" pointed out this great story in the Washington Post.

Comments

Just one codecil

[joshbrown.livejournal.com]

Please do not include Judaism in this. While Orthodox Judaism does not permit homosexuality, and does not look lightly on it, other than extreme Ultra-Orthodox groups, any objection to it is not done publicly.
It is only Christian groups who are this adamant of their hatred of homosexuality.
So, please don't hate ALL organized religions jsut because you have a problem with Christianity.

Re: Just one codecil

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

There, now, y'see? It's so easy to say "only Christian groups", when some flavors have forgiven and even embraced the existence of gays.

I have much, much less problem with Judaism philosophically than I do with most varieties of Christianity. But I do have problems with organized religion that go beyond any particular doctrine. It's the kind of thing where I'll do my best to give you plenty of warning if I'm about to go off.

It should be pretty soon, by the way. :-/

Re: Just one codecil

[joshbrown.livejournal.com]

When I said "only Christian groups" I did NOT mean to say ALL Christian groups. But the only groups who are outspoken and practically violent about their objections to homosexuality are Christian groups.
And if you want to rant, I am perfectly willign to discuss religion with you.

Re: Just one codecil

[kengr]

And some Muslim groups. But we don't see much of that because Islam is a minority religion here.

Re: Just one codecil

[zachkessin.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that Fred Phelps reading of the bible is
THOUGH SHALL NOT BE GAY oh and they may be a few other things but we can ignore them as long as YOU ARE NOT GAY

Now I'm Jewish, not christian, but I remember a few rather strong points in the Torah, that Mr Phelps may want to think about....
1) Love they Neighbor,
2) Don't go spreading rummors
3) One should try to refrain from embarasing someone*
4) Assault is definitly out.

*) One can argue weather outwardly gay people actually are embarased to say that they are, but Mr Phelps near as I can tell *INTENDS* to embarase them.

[dragonscholar.livejournal.com]

Ah, that gives me a bit of hope for humanity. Thanks!

[partiallyclips.livejournal.com]

I don't see a single encouraging word in this article, sorry. Don't feel like writing a diatribe about why, either.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

You don't need to, bud. But call if you need to talk, huh? Sounds as if you're still really down.

I'll give you one

[scruffycritter.livejournal.com]

One of the most gay hating states out there decided thinks "fag bashing is a worse thing than being a fag".

They believe Rev. Phelps is in for one real rude surprise come judgement day.

I for one thinks he's a prime example of the devil quoting scripture for his own purpose.

Re: I'll give you one

[partiallyclips.livejournal.com]

As an atheist, I believe the good Reverend is going to oblivion like the rest of us.

[poltr1]

I have to disagree with partiallyclips. I found the piece very encouraging. Instead of being outcast, the people in the young man's congregation sided with him and against Fred Phelps & Co. Perhaps it's only tolerance at this point; i.e. not total acceptance yet, but it's a start.

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

Molly Ivins once talked about going to a high school football game in the heart of Texas during the civil rights era, when the team had recently been integrated, and many people were not happy about the entire idea of integration. They were playing another team that was integrated, and there was a fight where one of the African-Americans on the home team was being beaten up by two or three other African-American kids from the other side. One of the spectators stood up and roared, "Ref! You get those n--- off of our black boy!"

Not tolerance, not acceptance, but something that might someday lead to it all.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Saw this earlier; my machine crashed before I could post it.

Phelps is a piece of work, and his daughter sounds like one too. Damned shame one of them can't discover that s/he is irresistibly attracted to a same-sex partner.

[poltr1]

Oh, like that guy in American Beauty? :-)

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen it yet. Believe it or not. (Hey, two kids not yet really of theater age, no reliable babysitter nor money for one -- haven't seen more than five movies in the past three years, and we don't rent. It's on the list, for Someday Soon...)

You could maybe explain the joke to a poor hermit, then? :-)

[poltr1]

You could maybe explain the joke to a poor hermit, then? :-)

Not a joke. Just a honkin' big spoiler if I tell all here.

Your moviegoing is a lot like mine. If the wife or I want to see a movie, we'd have to see it one at a time or on a vacation day when the kid's in day care.

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

You oughta see the look on Phelps' face when Michael Moore confronts him with a pink motor home labeled the Sodomobile... that alone was worth buying the Awful Truth set. I thought Fred was going to burst into flames... it was a beautiful moment.

One has to wonder if the gentleman "doth protest too much".

[siliconshaman.livejournal.com]

Can you imagine what kind of siesmic shockwaves it would set off in the fag-bashing sect if it was discovered that Phelps was actually gay, as in incontravertable proof of him having homosexual sex...

Not to mention the belly laughs from everyone else!

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

The problem is finding any gay man willing to have sex with him in the first place. God knows I'm not the one ... I'd sooner go back to pretending I'm straight, and my ex-wife can tell you how well that worked out. :)

Frankly, Phelps does show a number of symptoms of heavy-duty self-denial. Either that, or he really is as evil as he appears.

Either way, and heading back to Tom's original comment about organized religion ... speaking as a recovered Catholic who's still religious in his own way, I've never been one to mind organized religion itself. It's organized fundamentalism that's the problem, and I don't care if it's Christian, Islamic, or Pagan. Yes, there are fundamentalist Pagans ... I was once told by a hard-core Dianic that since I was male, I wasn't as important in the overall scheme of the universe.

Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) can be and is practiced by perfectly reasonable people. When that little mental dial ticks over from "I have found what works for me, and I can share it by my example" to "I have found what works for everyone and I have a responsibility to force them to see the light", that's when it becomes a problem. It's the loss of distinction between "I believe" and "I know"--a more important line than any other I can think of. I know that 2+2=4 (at least in Euclidean geometry) and I know that planets exist elsewhere in the galaxy, and I can prove these points based on observation and/or symbolic logic. I believe that there are divine powers in the Universe based on my own personal experience, and I believe that there are extra-solar intelligences based on probability, but I cannot prove either of these empirically.

It's the loss of this fine distinction that's at the core of fundamentalism, and that is the great danger of fundamentalism--it represents the loss of perspective, the loss of the ability to probe and to question and to reason.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

That's a healthy portion of my upcoming Snarling right there.

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

Well, damn. If I'd known I was rummaging around in your head, I'd've lifted a song while I was at it. :)

What's interesting is fighting my own 'fundamentalist' urges, the insidious little voice that tries to claim moral superiority because I try so hard to maintain the distinction between knowledge and faith. It's a tempting trap to fall into--I'd like to consider myself a better person than the Phelpses and Robertsons and Falwells, but that's not my call to make, cosmically speaking. Instead, I content myself with believing that I'm doing a better job than they with the information at hand--when the day comes that I'm called to account, hopefully I'll be right.

[siliconshaman.livejournal.com]

True, it would have to be someone deeply, deeply in love with him, either that or a totally anomynous encounter...

I take your point though about the kind of hardened mindset found in fundimentalism, of whatever kind. [there are secular fundies as well after all.] And yeah, I know there are fundie pagans, I used to belong to a covern with one as High Priestess... for a short while!

Funny how they all seem to have very similar views, be they Christianic or Islamity or whatever... It's just an excuse.

It all boils down to; I'm right and I'm going to make you just like me.
Usually accompanied by a deep seated fear of something, or the world in general, which provokes a hatred towards the object or a generalised anger.

Personally I think that usually it's ignorance and fear at the root though, which if left unchecked kinda curdle.

Ignorance leads to uncertainty, uncertainity leads to fear, fear leads to hate, hate leads to anger, and anger leads to the dark side. [to paraphrase Yoda]

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

Good points about fear. When Michael Moore confronted Phelps with about a dozen gays, the look on Phelps' face was raw terror, not hatred.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

When Fred Phelps & Co came out to protest at the memorial for Randy Shilts, he was met by over 2,000 angry San Francisco Queers.

The "protest" lasted 30 seconds. They're cowards and bullies.

[skipjim.livejournal.com]

So this would be like the PETA protester I saw outside the Circus this year in her fashionable leather jacket and boots?

[siliconshaman.livejournal.com]

Well, well. There's hope for humanity yet. Hope you don't mind but I snagged the link to post in my own journal, there's a few folks over there could do with an encouraging sign right now.

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

I'm a believer in God, and my personal view on homosexuality is this;

I don't think it's what God had intended, but then again, there's a LOT of what we do that God had never intended, and let's face it, there's a whole lot worse you can do to somebody than give them an orgasm.
So what you do with your fireman is between you and God... That is, until you start doing it to an unwilling recipient or, God forbid, a child... Then it becomes MY business!

The closing statement in that article reminds me a lot of an old Disney "Ranger Brown and Humphrey Bear" cartoon, when Ranger Brown tells Humphrey to "Leave the kiddies alone!" and whacks him on the knee with a fish-bucket.

That's precisely what I'd like to do with all those anti-gay protesters;

"Leave the poofters alone!" *WHACK*

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

Oh, and as far as lesbianiasm, my only two concerns are;

A) Are they hot?

and

B) Can I watch?

...... Hey, like I said, we ALL do stuff God never intended.

[skipjim.livejournal.com]

I for one was encouraged by the article.

People who would normally have been Phelp's minions telling him basically to get the f*ck out of their town. It reminds me of the time we were going to set up a grill across the street from the Peta protesters when there was a cattlemen's convention in town...=]

This Phelps guy has realized one thing, Hate sells. Give some ignorant louse someone to hate and you have power over him...