Hell

[filkertom]

On the previous thread, ericcoleman mentioned Hell.

See, to me Hell is one of the biggest reasons why I don't believe. It makes no sense at all.

Let's examine it for a moment, with a particular and straightfoward presumption: God exists, and He created humanity to be as we are. The whole Adam & Eve thing is legit. Cool?

Recall that one of the very first lessons of Eden is to be ashamed of knowing too much.

So. Hell.

First thing is, after you're dead, you're judged. Good enough score? Heaven for you. Not so good? Maybe Purgatory (the Catholic plan). Bad? An extradimensional torture chamber of infinite size, filled with demons of unspeakable evil and exquisite perversion, for torturing people after they're dead.

And part of the fun in Heaven is being able to watch friends and family members suffering in Hell.

Many of the sins that put you in Hell involve following the hardwired instincts that God gave us. Trying to resolve the conflict between Free Will and Original Sin gets you five-to-eternity in one of the Bolgias.

And let's be clear on that, as well: Screw up during your threescore and ten, and you go to Hell for a gazillion years. Eternal torment.

No wonder they had to write the New Testament. Jesus Christ might as well be called Jehovah: Extreme Makeover.

See, I'm quite convinced there is no afterlife. No evidence, apart from some grainy photos in the Weekly World News, which may have been taken by Batboy. The Christian God is a sociopathic megalomaniac (and I did once point this out to a street preacher, who countered that it was different from just any insane person acting like that, because, well, he was God) who rules through terror, intimidation, and ignorance. The good teachings of Jesus (who I doubt was an historical figure -- again, no evidence for, lots against) get lost in the grim need to celebrate death and torture.

How can a god of love say "be fruitful and multiply" and "sex is Original Sin"?

How can a god of love say some kinds of love are forbidden because of a chromosome? Or are unnatural when they are performed by His creations? What is "unnatural", anyway?

How can a god of love let criminals renounce their acts at the last moment just so they can get into Heaven, but not (as a for-instance) let unbaptized babies in?

How can a god of love basically say to every single person, "Don't follow the instincts that I gave you or I'll punish you for eternity"?

To me, these are not the works of any kind of god who deserves respect or worship at all. These are the works of the nasty old men who perpetuate the superstition of God, to keep their flock afraid, ignorant, and in line... and to hold them with the carrot of eternal life. Don't be afraid of death -- be afraid of Me.

Because, no one really knows what happens to your intellect after you die.

Perhaps it dies as well, lost in the degenerating biochemistry of your brain, and that's it.

Perhaps it becomes part of some cosmic All, assimilated into the aether, a soft grace note in the Music of the Spheres.

Perhaps you are reborn, with or without knowledge of your prior life, or lives.

Perhaps you end up on the banks of a river, age 25, with food provided in tubes every day. Perhaps you recline in a marble palace, fed ambrosia and nectar. Perhaps you sit in a mead hall, waiting for the battle that will decide the universe. Perhaps you float in an endless, quiet stream with all the other souls, guarded by a three-headed dog. Perhaps you get seventy-two virgins and your own palace. Perhaps you're seated with everyone at a huge table covered with food, and you can't raise your hands to your own mouth, and the difference between eternal glory and eternal suffering is whether or not you can learn to feed each other. Perhaps there's a watchmaker, a sculptor, an artist, a metalworker, crafting new life and letting it free. Perhaps you go Beyond The Veil, or Beyond The Rim, or Beyond The Fields We Know.

Perhaps there is a Christian Heaven, and a Christian Hell.

But no one knows.

It's what they believe.

Reference links: The Skeptic's Annotated Bible, and The Internet Sacred Text Archive.

So. Very serious question here, and I of course compel no one to answer it:

If you believe in an afterlife, what do you believe, and why?

Comments

[penmage.livejournal.com]

One view of Hell that I find interesting is the Jewish view. Basically, you're supposed to spend this life doing good things and getting close to god. When we die, everyone goes to the same place - a place where you can basically enjoy the godly wonder of god. Thing is, you can enjoy it more depending on how much you put in in this world. If you spent your life doing good deeds and building your relationship with god, than you can really appreciate it, and it's awesome. If you spent your life being scum, then once you hit the afterlife, you suddenly realize that you wasted your life, and now you can't appreciate the greatness that's in front of you. You see lots of other people basking in the heavenly glow and you realize that you could have had that too, all you had to do was - good. And you didn't. And that is hell.

[que-sara-sara.livejournal.com]

But doesn't the Jewis view state that those unfortunate enough to be born female don't go anywhere after death and that's why they are to be treated as well as possible during life? Or am I off base on that one? (so hard to remember what I've actually learned and what isn't exactally right)

[que-sara-sara.livejournal.com]

Personally, I've always (and I do mean since I was about 6 or 8 years old) believed in reincarnation. (how I got there is a completely different post)

At some point in my life I was exposed to what I think is a Mormon belief that you are only in hell for a certain about of time depending on what it is you've done in violation of God's laws. (so many years for rape, or murder or screaming "God Damn It" when you drop that anvil on your foot)

While I was busy being the only pagan working at the Christian book distributor and listening to them all complain about how bad it was in this life for them I decided that theren doesn't need to be a hell away from this earth. By reincarnating again and again and again they could very easily do their time in hell in this world that is so not what they say they want it to be.

Why should God go to the trouble of creating this completely separate hell when they've managed to create and recreate it for themselves right here?? They can reincarnate until they learn his lessons and actually create a heaven here on earth.

[zellion.livejournal.com]

At some point in my life I was exposed to what I think is a Mormon belief that you are only in hell for a certain about of time depending on what it is you've done in violation of God's laws. (so many years for rape, or murder or screaming "God Damn It" when you drop that anvil on your foot)


Not it's not a Mormon belief, sorry. Everyone's always trying to pin odd beliefs on us. We have enough of our own, thanks! =D

Seriously though Mormonism is actually part of the "Hell is separation from God" school, no actual torture or anything, you know. Just living eternally in a place where God isn't.

[darthparadox.livejournal.com]

Reincarnation's always been an attractive notion to me, particularly the idea that your life experiences shapes not only your memories but your soul... and so when you're reincarnated you have no memories, but a soul shaped by past experiences.

That said, I really don't know what I believe. It's not really something I spend time thinking about - the intent behind my morality is not any reward after death, but a sincere desire to be a good person to other people.

The afterlife really don't enter into it.

[hughcasey.livejournal.com]

I do not believe in an afterlife. There is no soul... when we die, we are gone, and nothing that we ever did matters.

I do, however, believe in God. I believe that he is a cruel, malicious, and evil being who does not deserve my worship, but only my undying hatred.

Yes, I have issues. I don't care. I still hate him.

[barbara-the-w.livejournal.com]

Sing it, Brother, sing it.

I believe in Hell

[anansi133.livejournal.com]

Hell is a place that exists in this world, while we are alive. It's a place without hope, without a future. It's an eternal present that is not without pleasure, but completely without happiness. In fact, many people stuck in today's hell are stuck in the relentless pursuit of pleasure, but none of those pleasures make them happy. It's a place where the emotional nourishment we need has somehow become converted to left-handed sugars and Olestra fat substitue, we can consume all we desire without being in any way fulfilled.

I see no logical contradiction in the existance of hell: many people assume that only something this awful can really penetrate the human tendancy to fool itself. Satan has permission to teach us the kinds of lessons that God is just too kind to want us to know.

Heaven, that's a fairy story I have a hard time believing in. Any place where everything's taken care of, has no need for the likes of me, and I wouldn't want to be there.

Re: I believe in Hell

[arcane-k.livejournal.com]

"Hell is a place that exists in this world, while we are alive. It's a place without hope, without a future. It's an eternal present that is not without pleasure, but completely without happiness."

I had a job like that once.

[peteralway.livejournal.com]

Many years ago, I used to follow alt.atheism on Usenet. Someone had a nice sig file, that went something like this:

Believing consciousness exists after death is like believing 70 mph exists after a car crash.

[darrenzieger.livejournal.com]

I think you'd appreciate the song "Jerry Falwell's God" by my songwriting idol/Web design client Roy Zimmerman (formerly of The Foremen, if you remember them). He's got it pretty much covered.

http://www.royzimmerman.com/mp3/Homeland32/08. Jerry Falwell's God.mp3

[darrenzieger.livejournal.com]

Here's a more functional link....

Jerry Falwell's God (http://www.royzimmerman.com/mp3/Homeland32/08. Jerry Falwell's God.mp3)

[arcane-k.livejournal.com]

*scratch* *scratch*

If you do and say the right things, you go to a wonderful place when you die.

Is it my imagination, or would Christianity by any other name be considered a death cult?

[hiddenkrypt.livejournal.com]

the difference between religion and cults is measured in numbers of believers.

I'm in complete agreement, Mr. Smith

[andamaroo.livejournal.com]

An all powerful and compassionate god cannot condemn someone to hell for an infinite amount of time for a finite amount of evil.

Re: I'm in complete agreement, Mr. Smith

[arcane-k.livejournal.com]

Sure can, if he's insane.

Look at the platypus. Rent "Heaven's Gate." I rest my case.

[devospice.livejournal.com]

The good teachings of Jesus (who I doubt was an historical figure -- again, no evidence for, lots against)

I thought there was actually quite a bit of historical evidence that he really existed? Whether he really walked on water and rose from the dead are not the issue, but I thought it was well documented that he preached about God and was crucified by the Romans. I could be wrong though.

I do believe in reincarnation and actually there's a fair bit of scientific evidence to support it. Although generational memory can't yet be ruled out. Elephants can do it. Why not us? :)

Ironically I was talking about the whole Hell topic with my boss (who's Jewish) the other day. He asked me if I really believed in that. I told him I find it hard to believe that when we die that's it- that our conscienceness just disappears into infinity. And I like to think that somewhere Adolf Hitler is being kicked repeatedly in the balls right now.

->Later.....Spice

[arcane-k.livejournal.com]

Trying to prove a negative is a fruitless venture, here. I'd stick with "Where's the evidence for a positive claim?"

[hiddenkrypt.livejournal.com]

Perhaps there is a Christian Heaven, and a Christian Hell.

But no one knows.

It's what they believe.

Possibly the best quote I have ever seen on the internet.


As far as jesus, I don't care if he was a historical figure or not. He could very well be (And evidence wise is) a fictional character. The words and quotes attributed to him often are still good advice. Unfortunatly, people forget that, and focus on the negative bits...

When I die, I believe my body will decompose and return to nutrients in the soil taht will feed plans and evetually animals who will in turn come back to the soil. but that's the physical knowledge I have.

I don't think about afterlife. I figure I'll find out when I get there.

[skipjim.livejournal.com]

Try asking a highly religious individual(aka Fundie) how their God can be omniscient, omni-present, and omnipotent AND how we can have free will at the same time. They can't even grasp the contradiction in the statement.

I try and pester my fundie coworker about once a week =].

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

Belief is the operative word here. It's based on faith. No one can compel belief or prove it for that matter. For the record, I'm a life long and active Mormon. My husband is a convert and my kids have been raised Mormon. Anyway....... I've been having the "hell" discusion with Ian, who just turned 17, he's not sure that Heaven is worth the effort. So we've been talking about the concept. Hell isn't fire and brimstone. It's no more progression, it's the absense of family. He's not ready to throw religion out of the window, he's quite firm that he believes in God and Jesus Christ, and in an afterlife. He would love it if some one would explain to him how Birds and Dinosours(sp) are related. We've had talks about booze and smoking about girls and sex. He's at an interesting juncture right now. He's questioning and looking and hopefully growing it's part of who he is. Will I love him and support him through this? Of course, will I love him any less if he decides to not go to church? Of course not. I will support him and help in through this and anything else he asks for help in.

BTW some of the concepts you mention Tom are not "christian" but catholic. the two are not always the same. There is a wide range of belief in christian circles. I find most catholic beliefs just as puzzeling as you do.

I hope this makes sense. I don't always get the thoughts down well on paper (so to speak)

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Understood re: the disparity between Catholicism and the rest of Christianity. But the RCC has, if not the most sway, the most public unified face.

My lame joke is that I was raised Lutheran and then Methodist, so I worship ways to kill Superman.

[ladysprite.livejournal.com]

As far as afterlife is concerned, I'm quite aware of the fact that I have *no* idea of what happens.

But.... I have a choice. I can choose to believe whatever I want - that there's a judgemental guy in white ready to punish me forever because I called him by the wrong name, or that everything ceases *poof* the moment I die and that nothing of me matters anymore, or that something good and nice will happen.

The last one sounds like the most fun. So I choose to believe it, right now - that each being, when they pass, finds their own positive version of the afterlife, and that mine involves a whole lot of questions and answers about the nature of the universe, followed by a chance to come back again. As a manatee.

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

Also, some of the concepts you mention aren't either Christian or Catholic, as far as I can recall. Sex is not Original Sin. The Original Sin, the Fall of Man, happened because God said "You can have everything except the apples on this tree" and Adam said "Okey-dokey, God, you got it" and then went and ate them anyway. You could call it disobedience, if you see the God-Adam relationship as a master-servant thing. You could call it lying, or breaking a promise, or simple stupidity. You could call it a failure to exercise the control of reason over our base desires: or, flipping that over, you could call the whole thing a cheat, a set-up to put us in the wrong, because why should we exercise control over our base desires? Why should we have to face the consequences of breaking our given word? Why should we learn that disobeying someone in authority over us can sometimes be a really stupid idea?

The equation of sex with Original Sin came a lot later and was definitely man-made. As, quite probably, was the rest of it. All God has to do is exist. We supply the rest, including most of the definitions of hell.

[arcane-k.livejournal.com]

If the Original Sin was that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, does that mean that God wants us to be naked and ignorant?

That's the best argument I've heard against dressing up to go to church.

[cktraveler.livejournal.com]

A wise man once told me, I say a wise man once told me "Grasshopper," and when he'd finished his drink he continued. I say, I say he told me "Just because you've proven there ain't no unicorn doesn't mean nobody ever saw a horse standin' in front of a tree branch."

I asked him what he meant when he wasn't full of booze, and he told me that just 'cause one guy says there's a God and says a lot of stuff about him that doesn't make sense, the fact that it don't make sense disproves his theory, not the existence of God period.

The big problem with religion is the same as the big problem with politics is the same as the big problem with science is the same as the big problem with finance. Whenever you've got a coherent system some jerk is going to figure out how to pervert it to control people. It's simple human nature.

The trick comes a few hundred or thousand years down the line. Looking at the modern evolution of a religious structure, is it possible to see the original underlying philosophy underneath all the tinkering people have done to shift it to their own ends?

So, basically, when presented with religious notions the first thought that comes into my mind is whether those notions serve better as an explanation for the world or a hypothesis about God, or whether they're more of a way to threaten folks and keep them in line. If the latter, well ...

[arcane-k.livejournal.com]

Does the Bible mention talk show hosts? Please tell me they don't exist and this has been a bad dream.

My 2 cents

[qraccoon.livejournal.com]

The best material I have read about the afterlife was featured in Terry Pratchett's "The Wee Free Men". The Pictsies of that novel believed that they were already dead and were in heaven. When a human girl, Tiffany, asked them about this, this was their reply.

"Aye! Just as advertised!" said Rob Anybody. "Lovely sunshine, good huntin', nice pretty flowers, and wee burdies goin' cheep."
"Aye, and then there's the fightin'," said another. And then they all joined in.
"An' the stealin'!"
"An' the drinkin' and fightin'!"
"An' the kebabs!" said Daft Wullie.
"But there's bad things here too!" said Tiffany. "There's monsters!"
"Aye," said Rob, beaming happily. "Grand isn't it? Everythin' you could ever ask for, even things to fight!"
"But we live here!" said Tiffany.
"Ach, well, mebbe all you humans wuz good in the Last World, too," said Rob Anybody generously.

I think this world can be a heaven or hell, depending on your viewpoint.

[cogitationitis.livejournal.com]

Though one of the Articles of Faith in Judaism is that the dead will be ressurected when the Messiah comes, I believe that when you're dead, you're dead, and that's it. So best to live this life.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

An afterlife consisting of divine judgment followed by eternal reward or punishment might actually exist, but nearly every individual who's ever taught others about such an afterlife, and every organized group that does so without exception, teach it to control people.

Hell could exist. It could have been brought into being by an all-powerful deity, and that deity could condemn people to eternal punishment. Or a loving, caring deity could exist. But the two are completely inconsistent. They can't be the same god. And the existence of more than one god is itself inconsistent with there being an all-powerful one.

I would be a lot happier in life if I wholeheartedly believed that when our physical bodies die, our minds cease to exist as well. The idea of not being any more is not terrifying to me. Unfortunately, I don't feel any certainty about what happens after death, and the lack of certainty is terrifying to me. I fervently hope, and if I actually believed in a deity I would pray, that there is no eternal afterlife, because I believe that any truly eternal existence eventually must become hell, once we become bored with every possible experience. Hell is wanting to end and not being able to.

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

There's a line they incomprehensibly cut from Roger Corman's Masque of the Red Death when they show it on telly these days.

"Each man creates his own god for himself. His own heaven, his own hell."

Mind you, the line is uttered by a personified plague bacillus, so I don't know how much reliance you can place on it...

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

A quote that has stuck with me for a long time can be paraphrased as, "Every religion has one acolyte."

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

I believe that part of us lives on, but not necessarily remembering this life, and most likely as part of an "all"-type thing. Reincarnation figures into it as well for those people having something to teach the rest of the world.
As far as life, today, I try to live a life that does good and tries not to do bad, although that's more than likely an unwinnable battle. I don't do that to get a better afterlife, if that indeed exists, but for my own sense of peace in this life.

[delayra.livejournal.com]

I was 19 when I had essentially a sundering of the remnants of all my religious belief and a restructuring of my personal truth. My beliefs are too long and drawn out for me to not be too lazy to type them out, but sometime, maybe, I can sit and talk about it with you. A lot of the questions you brought up are what finally broke the levies holding back the floods that tore apart what was left of my belief. I was raised Southern Baptist, and my faith got it's first minor knock when I was 10, and a major thumping when I was 12, and by 16 it was held together by scotch tape and chewing gum

Now, I guess there's not a lot that can shake my religious belief as it has formed -- mostly in the year that followed between 19 and 20, ending just before I was 20 in my first near-death experience when I had a pulmonary embolism that covered 97% of my left lung and 82% of my right lung in blood clots. It was just over 2 weeks short of my 20th birthday and I collapsed at work, the docs told my mother that night that I wouldn't survive to see the morning. I told her I would and that was that

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I agree with you in the most part, but would like to clarify -- and have clarified -- some points if I ever get to talk to you in person again

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

We can have that conversation, and you can probably pick up a hug or two as well.

Understand that I'm laying out why I don't believe in the afterlife. There's an extra part of that, part and parcel, having to do with how you live your life and why. Heaven is seen as a reward for good behavior in this life, and Hell is a punishment for bad behavior; therefore -- and I absolutely guarantee that this is the way some evangelicals think, I've talked to 'em both live and online, and the ramifications of their statement don't occur to them -- if there is no God, no promise of Heaven or threat of Hell, what's to keep you from, say, going on a killing spree?

The idea of doing something because it helps someone else, because it helps a member of the community or the species, because it's the right thing to do without the Invisible Sky Cop watching over your shoulder, is at best glossed over by some of these folks.

[omimouse.livejournal.com]

I believe that the soul doesn't just go away when the body dies. As for what happens to it, I don't really know. I just know that I don't believe that death means the end of everything.

-sigh- Sorry, Tom. I was going to try for a better explanation of my beliefs on this. After loosing three family members in the space of about six months, not to mention a brief bout with feeling severely suicidal around that same time, death is proving to be a very difficult topic for me.

What kind of "life" is there in the "afterlife"

[backrubbear.livejournal.com]

I think the point you're getting to is that when we die, we don't necessarily sit up on clouds playing harps, or any other number of religious stereotypical afterlives.

At minimum, the things we are made of will be recycled by the Universe. That'll keep going until the (presumed) heat death. We might be recycled into living things.

If there's a "soul", perhaps that too is recycled in some fashion. Do I think I have a soul? Yes. I've had a few too many weird "supernatural" experiences to think that there's nothing at all. Do I think consciousness plays into having a soul? Not really. At best, I think there's a component of consciousness that lingers with souls that eventually gets stripped away. Souls, I think, get some amount of recycling. Soul soup could have the bits that contributed to you being you in this life being reused for one or more lives over time.

Probably the biggest "down" with my belief is that souls to a large extent require life to support them. Kill the whole planet dead, and everything's lost.

[hughcasey.livejournal.com]

For my less nihilistic view of religion than the very depressed one I posted above, check my LJ here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/hughcasey/167694.html

I didn't create this, but I think it's perfect.

One small quibble

[scruffycritter.livejournal.com]

As proof of lack of the existence of a God, you cite flaws in the various religions that seek to worship him.

And yes, they are flaws, but thet aren't proof of the lack of existence of God. Those are just problems with the religions that have them. At best it proves that every single blessed one of them has it wrong.

For a moment, pretend God is a scientist with The Universe being his experiment. He wants to see what happens to it after he creates it. NO WAY does any good scientist start messing with his experiment or else he queers the results he is interested in. He necessarily has to be MIA. He can't participate in the experiment. If somehow the lab rats really DO get a glimpse of him, he's probably going to have to shut down the sucker entirely and start over.

I'm not sure if I believe in an afterlife. I know this though: I know I'm here. I believe in an afterlife to the extent I believe in a beforelife, and I have a hard time believing I got created out of nothing. The concept of "beforelife" makes me wonder about an afterlife. Since I can't prove it to anyone (including myself), it's called faith.

Re: One small quibble

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Actually, Scruff, I wasn't trying to prove the lack of existence of God. The arguments that I gave presuppose God, for the sake of argument. The afterlife, now, that I have a real problem with. But, as also mentioned, I don't know. And there is no way to know unless and until I wake up Someplace Else the day after I'm dead. If there is an afterlife, no one's figured out how to call here from there yet. John Edward notwithstanding.

And the experiment analogy doesn't work, because God is about as MIA as I am on this thread. Churches, bibles, religious bookstores, televangelists, Christmas shopping, adaptations of Dickens, remaindered Grinch toys, DVDs of The Passion of the Christ? This is not an anonymous observer.

The "beforelife" thought is one I've had on numerous occasions, and it's a great paradox. The be-all and end-all of each of our existences is our own perceptions... but where and when do they begin and end?