Dreams Of Noise

There is one quibble I have with the article, or rather with one comment made in it. The banker, lamenting seeing qualified, intelligent people taking call center jobs, wonders if educated Americans would ever take jobs like this out of simple financial compulsion, phrasing the rhetorical question as though it could not be more ridiculous. Man, we DO take those jobs, and all the time in this country. I've got a degree and I'm doing tech support. I LOVE my job, it turns out, but it's still the same basic job that this banker thinks an American man with a degree would not stoop to taking.

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takaal.livejournal.com

That same quote jumped out at me. I've got degrees, but my present job (which I, like you do yours, adore) doesn't require any of them - and would likely vastly prefer I have none of them (but I'm a fast-talking little devil and overcame the "overqualified" hurdle).

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I've never gotten the "overqualified" angle. I realize that there are people out there for whom the concept of loyalty means nothing, but why assume that a person will leave the moment s/he gets offered a better job? If I'm out there, coming to you for a job, knowing what that job entails, and asking for the job because I need it, I'm going to stick at that job and treat you as an employer well because you gave me a job when I needed it. I'm not going to bail on you. For so long as I'm there, you've got an intelligent employee who feels grateful to you for the hand up. Why pass that up?

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takaal.livejournal.com

Nor I. I applied for this job, and many like it, because I knew it was what I wanted to do. Several places were ADAMANT that they wouldn't even speak to me, since I was clearly using *this* type of position to scope out the company and get promoted from the inside (or something equally idiotic). My favorite was the interview where they loved me, I rather liked them, but they gave the job to someone UNDERqualified because they thought I'd "be really bored".

*sigh*

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That sounds like typical corporate thinking... which I don't get, especially not in hiring. "Well let's see here, you'd be great at this job several levels up in the company and this job with the call center did used to be considered entry-level, but what we really want is a temporary wage slave who'll be here long enough to justify the training cost but not long enough to build up a decent wage via increases. Plus, you'd probably be better at my job than I am, so you're a threat to my stability. Have a nice day somewhere else."

Oh wait... maybe I do get it. (smirk)

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I have never completely understood the "you're overqualified" thinking. When I was still at Entyre Doc Prep, they kept wanting to slide me into lower-middle management. But I really enjoyed my work as a customer rep/doc preparer/help desk guy. I felt I contributed directly to the company's success, and I didn't have to tell people what to do, which really makes me uncomfortable in a job environment. And there were a couple of people there who I always thought looked askance at me for not wanting to move up the food chain.

And it never, ever occurs to them that it's not as easy to find a decent job out there as all that. I didn't want to flip burgers or work retail anymore.

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Ah, the "Peter Principle." Promote someone who is good at his/her job until the employee reaches the point where s/he is no longer performing well, then leave the employee at that level. Promote to the point of incompetance, in other words. Yeah, common corporate nonsense. I get half the idea: if you have a talented employee, find the level where that person can be the most productive. The problem is, you don't know you've hit the limit until after you've passed it, by which point you cannot demote the employee back to his/her previous position because a) it'd be seen as an insult, b) you've already filled the previous position, and c) the laws won't allow you to do so without cause, which this doesn't qualify for and so you're stuck with a formerly productive employee in a job for which s/he isn't competant.

In your case, I think it was that you were being different. "What? He doesn't WANT to be promoted?! Everyone wants promotion! He's weird! And he's happy at his job? I'm not happy at mine, why should he be happy at his?"

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Yup, they don't realize you're not "management material" until it's too late. I had a job doing graphic design, desktop publishing, document creation, etc., that I really liked (except for dealing with some stressed out demanding customers). The person above me kept thinking I should try for management, despite my protests to the contrary, and kept adding more and more responsibilities that weren't related to my original job. it got to the point where I was stress-bombed on a regular basis, where everything dealing with computers was my responsibility (yet I had no control over procedures, implimentation or training) and I was falling behind in work production due to all of this extra management crap. So I burned out, big time. Used to read and write a lot, now I don't write and hardly ever read; used to work on dozens of creative project at a time, now I can't even start on one without getting a headache; used to learn quickly by reading manuals and dummies books, now I can't retain anything from one chapter to the next. Wasn't until after I crashed and burned that the supervisor admited "maybe you're not cut out for management."

Thanks a lot.

Now I'm unemployed and too "overqualified" to even find seasonal retail work. Looks like temp agencies again.

From:

the-s-guy.livejournal.com

Snap. I've been working the same helpdesk for six years, going on seven. I'm the third-longest-serving person on staff, and the longest outside of management by a long shot. I've had dozens of opportunities for promotion to supervisor.

So why don't I take them, when everyone else does?

Because I like the job I signed on for. I've filled in as supervisor here and there, and I loathe it. I hate the paperwork, I hate wading through other people's work and cross-checking it, I hate chairing useless meetings and I hate the hundred and one other administrative jobs that go with the position. I am also irritated when I have to take responsibility for the work of other people.

I signed on to be a phone/email monkey and a technician. I don't mind being a senior technician and (very) occasional mentor. What I do mind is being forced into doing the kind of pencil-pushing work I hate, just because I've been around longer than most.

As a tech, I can turn up to work in the morning, provide good-quality help to people directly and immediately all day long, and go home at night without worrying about the budget, personnel issues or next week's management report. Yes, I could probably do the job of my boss, my boss's boss, his boss, HIS boss, and possibly even my boss^5 or higher. It's just office politics and paper shuffling and psychology and meetings and scheduling and dealing with crises and writing reports and not listening to anyone who has half a clue. And yes, I'd get paid more for it.

I'd also probably go crackers and punch half of upper management in the nose.

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My husband has a BA in Psychology, and works at a call center, overnight shift. For a bank. As I understand it, about half of his co-workers also hold some kind of degree.

I think the author should talk to some American call center people. He'd be surprised, I suspect.

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I think he'd be shocked that many Americans not only have a great understanding of the situation the Indian call center employees are in, but that some of us are now taking even worse jobs than call centers due to outsourcing to India. If the call center jobs aren't available and those are jobs that degree-holding Americans used to hold and now don't, what will those Americans do for jobs? Whatever they can.

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Precisely. The number of people I know with degrees who work as secretaries, or do data entry is actually pretty small compared to the number I know doing retail or hotel work. None of those jobs require a BA, yet we have this glut of college grads all paying off student loans by working just barely over minimum wage.

Whenever I think about it too long, I get angry.

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There aren't enough jobs because of a combination of factors. The prices of darn near everything are artifically inflated, so the wages we earn aren't worth as much in terms of buying power. The economy is shite, thanks to three groups: the government, corporations, and the people. (So, we're all to blame, but for various reasons. heh) This country had plenty of money under the Clinton administration; now, we're farther in the hole than ever before.

Yeah. It's amazing we'd stoop to wanting call center jobs, isn't it?

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Clientlogic (the call center) is the biggest employer in Asheville. Or maybe the second; the Biltmore employs a whole lot of people, too.

That answer your question?

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The real question is, does that tell the banker from the article anything?

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Unfortunately, no. *sigh*

I hope he does a book tour, and talks to some Americans on the way.

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romlc475.livejournal.com

Being a survivor of 2 & 1/2 years on a multi-corporate (and now defunct) IT help desk, I'm intrigued and at the same time afraid of reading this book. A lot of the folks that called me weren't stupid, but ignorant, and needed help--something that eventually the Help Desk center folks had to start doing for ourselves as their respective companies wouldn't provide us with proper details and escalation points for helping their end-users. In the end, we felt just as helpless as the people calling us.
The story needs to be told, but I'm not sure I can read it and relive it all again.

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jonnorthwood.livejournal.com

"I was shocked to see professionally qualified journalists and bankers working at call centers. Do you think an American graduate will ever take up a job like this?" he says.

Uh, hello? I'm another one of the ones who has one and a quarter degrees (haven't gone back to finish the Masters, yet), and whose job was outsourced to India: as a result, after a decade at Intel, I've been able to find nothing but call center positions for the last two and a half years. I couldn't even get into retail because of the 'overqualification' hurdle noted by

takaal and others.

The center I'm in now has two 24/7 lines and five M-F 8am-11pm ET lines, and I have--at one point or another--supported all of them in one capacity or another.

Another element that strikes me, in addition to the author's questions about Americans taking this sort of job, is the the American-bashing in his "real instance which he came across on his trips to call centers."

Now I'm not saying Americans are universally intelligent--I can't count the number of six-toed, gill-necked, web-fingered mouth-breathing 'USA or nothing!' types I deal with on a daily basis--but, even after two years, I have difficulty believing the number of foreign nationals who call in because they "shouldn't have to read the manual to figure out how to operate the product, that is what people like [call center employees] are for!"

Grrr.

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You must understand something: I didn't post this here because I'm in favor of outsourcing, especially not to call centers. In fact, I have told several companies I am royally pissed at them for the insult of shlepping jobs out of this country to where they can be done more bottom-line cheaply by a man with an unintelligibly thick accent, insisting his name is "Mark" or "John", and who's obviously reading a diagnostic checklist. Call centers make me frickin' insane. I'm just fascinated by the thought that the people who work there hate it as well. To me, it's another symptom of how completely divorced from any reality except bottom-line profits most corporations are, that they would take actions apparently calculated to enrage their customers and abuse their employees.

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jonnorthwood.livejournal.com

Oh, nonononono ... that's not what I thought at all (you being in support, an' all that).

I was commenting specifically about the author, as he seemed so divorced from reality.

"What, people hate their jobs? Jobs like this exist? Americans wouldn't do this ..."

Sorry if it came across any other way: I'm not at my most clear or coherent when Captain Insomnia was battling Mr. Sleepy all night.

From:

backrubbear.livejournal.com

who's obviously reading a diagnostic checklist

I can live with the checklist.

I'd seriously prefer someone who understood the checklist and was capable of going through it out of order and not forcing you to spend 20 minutes doing it their (scripted) way.

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redaxe.livejournal.com

The quote that jumps out at me is "It is unfair to compare (TV cartoon character) Bart Simpson with Shakespeare"

I think he's got it exactly backwards. Both were written for the masses (of their time) with enough depth to reach the intelligentsia as well. Both have a number of topical references, which need some scholarship to understand, and explore classic themes. Each reaches deeply into comedy and drama (well, give the Simpsons a pass on deep drama, unless you want to count "Who needs the Kwik-E Mart?" :-) And of course, both steal their plots without significant disguise.

Is there a better comparison of works of genius? I don't think so :-D

From:

nuveena.livejournal.com

"'I was shocked to see professionally qualified journalists and bankers working at call centers. Do you think an American graduate will ever take up a job like this?' he says."

Wow. Color me annoyed, and add me to the call center veteran list.

"A lot of the folks that called me weren't stupid, but ignorant, and needed help--something that eventually the Help Desk center folks had to start doing for ourselves as their respective companies wouldn't provide us with proper details and escalation points for helping their end-users."

Exactly. I have to say, after working at the end of a tech support phone for some 5 years, it was never the ignorant callers I remembered.. there were too many, and usually they were appreciative of the help. To get talked about in the breakroom, the customer had to do something specTACularly stupid (the proverbial CD-ROM/cupholder story), or be totally rude and abusive (the woman who said that she couldn't understand me because my voice was "pitched too high" and could I transfer her to a man please).

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There's another aspect of this that I find fascinating, and it has to do with the bottom-line cluelessness: The way call centers are set up, there's at least a good chance that the customer will be actively offended. I know I get ticked off when I get someone following a script, or trying to pass themselves off as a different nationality. The one that's burned me more than any, however, is the Michigan Democratic Party.

They hired a call center in Minnesota.

(Funny and sometimes helpful thing, Caller ID.)

I called their headquarters here in Michigan and told them point-blank that not only would they not get a dollar from me, but I would actively encourage my friends not to donate as well, unless and until they moved their call center to Michigan. My reasoning is, I think, obvious, but I did spell it out for 'em: If they can't hire people in Michigan to work for them, why should I believe them capable of helping to create any other jobs in the state?

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That reminds me of the union that hired temps to protest Wal-Mart. They wanted a big demonstration to take place during a news event that week, not enough local union members could attend, so they hired temps to boost their numbers. Problem was, they mistreated the temps. Wouldn't allow breaks, forced a lot to work through lunches, tried to deny some their hours for not "protesting properly," etc. It was a major embarrassment, especially when one temp said in an interview "I used to work for Wal-Mart, it wasn't so bad, but this? This sucks!"

Where do they find these pointy-haired people?

From:

kayshapero

And then there are the email versions of these things in tech support. At least there's no problem with accents getting in the way, but the way they have of latching onto ONE WORD of the question and plugging in a standard answer having nothing whatsoever to do with the actual question drives me nuts. Humans should not be failing the Turing Test.

And I suspect it of being a combination of being penalized for passing on anything they can't answer to the next tier up (which my questions would generally require - if it's in the FAQ I don't CALL), and being set some sort of horrendous quota of emails to pass in an hour. Pheh.

And then there are experiences like this which leave me wondering with ill disguised dread when they'll simply decide their computers can handle it all without any human intervention.

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hms42

hmm... Working in a call center... How about some stories from people who have dealt with it. (The closest I have come to it has been answeing the helpdesk calls for a few jobs.)

Try this site -

http://www.techtales.com

I know I have submitted a few stories over the years and unfortunately, I can believe just about all of them to be true. There are many repeats, but some of the stories are just unbelieveable.

Harold

From:

the-s-guy.livejournal.com

Better sites for technical call centre stories are

techsupport and TechComedy (http://www.techcomedy.com).

These get updated daily, not monthly.

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The help centers that annoy me the most are the ones that have the tech people on stopwatches. They are told to answer my questions and get me off the phone in something like five minutes. Every second after that is recorded as a black mark against them. This is really annoying because I do a lot of tinkering around before I end up calling, so I've already done everything on their checklist, twice, and thus I usually have a problem that takes more than five minutes to solve. So the tech is stressed, I'm stressed, after ten minutes the floor supervisor comes over to berate the tech for taking so long (I've heard this in the background twice) and finally I just say forget it, hang up and bring the offending thing in to the store I bought it from to demand refund or exchange, and make sure they know why I'm not using the tech hotline.

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That's frickin' insane. Between all of the possible things that can go wrong technically, the level of tech understanding and/or cooperation from the customer, the level of straight-up communication between the customer and the help desk guy, and just finding and updating the records in the system, there's almost no way it can avoid being more than five minutes.

Problem solving takes as long as it takes.

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