Dreams Of Noise

Agreed on all points but with one quibble.

Whether the "unborn child" (about which I am refusing at the moment to enter into discussing about the appropriateness of the title one way or the other) was sired by a rapist or not is beside the point. The being's parentage should have no bearing one way or the other on its rights or lack of same. The live woman carrying it is, or should be, more important than *any* unborn child; conversely, the child bears no responsibility for the behavior of its father. The question of how horrible the father was need not come up to reach the conclusion you quite rightly reached.

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I add with some amusement here that I am speaking presently as the 8 1/2 months pregnant mother of a very much wanted unborn baby. So much for the pro-lifers' theory that I'd come around to their way of thinking if I were pregnant myself. (Didn't work the first pregnancy, either. She's two now. Or the second, miscarried early. I think I'm an incurable case of sensible, at least about this.)

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Sorry for the miscarry, happy for the first, great good luck on the latest. See, you want those kids, which is just great, and more power to you.

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Thanks. See, according to my right-to-life friends, the fact that I do want these kids should've made me somehow intuitively aware of how precious all unborn life is, and immediately convert me to their side.

All it actually did was persuade me that pregnancy is plenty tough even when you're doing it on purpose. It's sure not something I want to inflict on anyone who isn't.

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Jerkfaces don't understand that being pro-choice means being pro-choice.

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I know. It's why I really wanted to do clinic defense during the time while I was visibly pregnant, but it didn't turn out to be possible due to medical complications. I'm hoping to go with the newborn in tow, when he's out and I'm a little bit recovered. I think it's important for people to see that those of us who have babies on purpose still support the right of other people to make their own decisions.

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I'm hoping to go with the newborn in tow, when he's out and I'm a little bit recovered. I think it's important for people to see that those of us who have babies on purpose still support the right of other people to make their own decisions.

You might want to rethink that. I know someone who took her child in a stroller to a pro-choice march. It was a hot summer day, and what she talks about most is how the pro-choicers made sure that the boy was in the shade and that she and he had plenty of liquids... while the prolifers shouted all sorts of abuse about her at him and threatened to kidnap him to a home where he would be "taken care of properly."

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I expect that. I don't expect actual kidnapping attempts, and I don't care what they *say* to me.

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unclelumpy.livejournal.com

They also don't seem to understand that we don't like abortions or that we don't view them as somehow "good" or "right". We realize that an abortion is a sad, terrible thing and quite possibly one of if not the most heartbreaking experiences that anyone, especially a woman, can go through.

But at the same time we realize that life, for lack of a better word, is complicated, and that sometimes, despite our best efforts, we're forced into situations where we have no alternative course of action but to decide between the lesser of two evils. And should a woman decide, by her own volition, that it is a lesser evil to let a child die before it truly knows life rather than be born into a world which she feels is ill-prepared to offering it the love, safety and security necessary to experience the happy, healthy life it is due, then in the name of humanity, we should see to it that she has the freedom to pursue that option in a safe and healthy manner.

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Well, the other thing is, I have OB/GYN friends, and they can readily come up with circumstances in which an abortion is a desirable thing. They usually have to do with either the life or health of the mother, or the mother's social well-being, i.e., how well she could handle raising a child under her social and financial circumstances. It usually has to be pretty dire, but it is a factor.

Now, granted, those OB/GYNs are way more concerned with the life and health of the mother than these doofs tend to be.

There is also a really tragic misunderstanding of the late-term abortion, which everyone on Capitol Hill gets all bent out of shape on, but usually is used only to save the life of the mother or to terminate a pregnancy where the kid has no hope of survival short of heroic (and difficult and chancy and very expensive) measures. Nope, gotta have that Precious Birth.

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Nope, gotta have that Precious Birth.

Because Life Is Precious. Not quality of life, as Terri Schiavo would tell you if she had a brain left to have spoken with.

Have you noticed that just as conception is moving from anything actually medically testable to "sperm joining egg" the definition of "life" is shifting back to "having a beating heart (or one that can be restarted) with no mention of brain activity?

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unclelumpy.livejournal.com

You can't honestly tell me you're surprised that Pro-Lifers don't consider brain-activity to be the irreputable sign of life.

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Not in the least - how can they argue that clumps of cells are a baby before it has a brain, otherwise?

Besides... it would explain several votes...

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Well, yeah. But (and this is the reason I worded it this way) that is exactly the kind of "principled reason", i.e., situational hair-splitting, Lieberman is invoking, and it leads us to not giving a rape victim emergency contraception because it might kill a brand-new embryo, i.e., the rapist's potential unborn child.

I hate to have to do this, but... no, no, I don't have to spell it out. I'm quite sure your own imagination can fill in the blanks of a woman, just raped, arguing with an emergency room tech over whether or not the tech should violate his or her own religious tenets by providing emergency contraceptive to snuff out the precious new life within the woman's womb.

These fuckers are siding with that superstitious, God-fearing tech.

You're right -- no one should deny a woman emergency contraception. The question should never come up. But it does come up, because that thrice-damned birth is more important than anything else. And the fact that Lieberman specifically addressed rape cases in this fashion is simply horrific.

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Oh, I understand. I just don't think it's either necessary or fair to evaluate the fetus on the basis of what its parent did. Evaluating the situation on the basis of what the woman has just had to cope with is a different matter.

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trdsf.livejournal.com

My God, what will it take for Lowell Weicker to come back out of retirement?

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hitchkitty.livejournal.com

One of my least-favorite people -- who, coincidentally enough, will never have to face the decision himself -- has likened rape to robbery.

That's right, kids. A raped woman is like a robbed man. And you don't give the death penalty for robbery, so why for someone who didn't even commit the violation?

Fine, bozo. Let's have someone break into your home, vandalize it, sully it in ways you've never known possible. Rough neighborhood, you're thinking. I should move, you're thinking. But let's make this more like rape: you can't move. You can't leave behind the place that was violated.

Oh, and let's throw in another wrinkle: the robber left behind a pwecious widdle puppy. That craps on the carpet. And barks all night. And will be your full-time responsibility for the next nine months at least.

Now, you don't LIKE dogs. If you'd wanted one, you'd have already had one. Perhaps you're allergic. Perhaps this one hasn't had his shots and has a tendency to bite.

It's not fair to the puppy that his own owner doesn't like him. Didn't want him. Can't stand the sight of him. Sure would be nice to foist that mutt off on someone else, wouldn't it? No, sorry, not for another nine months.

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Oh, and, he pushed your legs open, and stuck the puppy up your ass for nine months, and then you had to take care of it.

Robbery!?

Oy.

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How fucking sick do you have to be, first off, to tell a woman who was just raped that she isn't as important as her rapist's potential unborn child?

You've got to know the answer to that, in light of South Dakota, Mississippi, and Utah's proposed bills.

It all makes complete sense... once you remember that a woman "is not a 'citizen' within the meaning of the Constitution of the United States"* and that sex is (for women only) a captiol crime. We're property, y'see, and so are the kiddies, and when we go makin' decisions about ourselves in our own pretty little heads, we're defrauding the head of the household of his due soverign rights. And yes, I can find you links that say it in just about those terms, citing both Dredd Scott and the Bible.

*Bonus points for anyone who recognizes that quote

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Be silent, woman, and attend thy labours.

Yeah, I know. The combination of sexism, feudalism, and zealotry is pretty damned vile, and still all too easy to find.

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catchild.livejournal.com

You've got to know the answer to that, in light of South Dakota, Mississippi, and Utah's proposed bills.

unfourtunately add tennessee to that list it goes to state house of rep next then hits the ballots for us to vote on with almost no publicity

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At least you're getting a vote. South Dakota women didn't even have that option - just woke up one morning without their 14th Amendment rights.

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nomaddervish.livejournal.com

This is incorrect. According to a random google news hit for "south dakota abortion signatures" (http://www.startribune.com/484/story/288816.html),

Q. How does it get from where it is now to a Supreme Court ruling?

First, there could be a ballot challenge. South Dakota has an unusual provision in its Constitution allowing a new law to be referred to the voters to decide whether they want it to take effect. Planned Parenthood has said it is contemplating this option. It would need to get 16,278 signatures on a petition by June, which would suspend the law and place the question on the November ballot.

If the voters reject the law, that ends the matter. If the voters approve the law, or if this ballot option is not pursued, the matter goes to the court.

The option to get the law onto a referendum is there, if they can get enough petitions out to do it.

Even if that fails, it seems likely that lower courts would issue an injunction against the law, preventing it from taking effect for a couple years until the Supreme Court hears it. If/when it reaches the Supreme Court, it's not looking likely to do better than a 5-4 loss unless another anti-abortion justice is appointed before it gets there. All is far from lost in SD.

However, I also discovered something new and troubling in that same article:

Q: If the plan succeeds, would abortion be banned nationwide?

A. No. It would mean they would be banned in South Dakota and six other states: Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri and Montana. Those states have passed so-called trigger laws, which would automatically ban abortion if Roe is overturned.

(Italics mine)

What fun, hmm?

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poltr1

The free-market libertarian side of me says "Well, what's wrong with finding another hospital? If Healthcare Provider X can't or won't give me what I want, I'll take my business elsewhere."

Granted, I'm not right now in the position or mental state where I've just been violated and I'm hysterical, demanding all sorts of retribution, antibiotics, and Plan B. But shouldn't women (and men) know where to get the stuff in advance? In other words, be proactive and develop an emergency plan?

I remember reading an article in one of my college newspapers that was written by a rape survivor. She described it as living through one's own *murder*. While robbery is a violation of one's personal self, rape is a violation of one's *body*.

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I will point out an obvious and all-too-plausible scenario: when the woman is found by the cops and brought in unconscious to their choice of hospital. Or to whatever hospital is closest. You don't necessarily know where you're going to go.

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