Conservatives, Christians, and Fandom

[filkertom]

A pretty interesting debate sprouted up on the thread below, and it seems to me to be a good idea to refine it here.

What is the current relationship of conservatism and Christianity to SF/F fandom? Of conservatives and Christians to fandom? Is it accepting? Is it hostile? Does it vary by locale?

There's a lot to think about with this. The first is defining our terms -- what I think of as "conservative" or "Christian" isn't necessarily what you think of. Is the problem with radicals of all stripes, i.e., the ones who would legislate their lifestyles on us, or is the problem the apparently more pagan- and GLBT- and poly-tolerant nature of fandom conflicting with more mainstream lifestyles, or is the problem only in a few people's heads? Do you have friends with whom you differ so profoundly on matters political that you just don't talk about that stuff with them anymore? No matter which side you are on, do you feel oppressed in fandom, and, if so, how and by whom?

There is no possible way I've done more than provided a starting point with these few questions, so by all means supply your own, and the answers if you think you've got 'em. (I do not mean to be snide by saying that. The only thing I know for a fact is that I don't have all the answers, and the one thing I'm reasonably sure of is that if they are to be found we'll most likely find them together.)

Comments

[blaisedec.livejournal.com]

I am a liberal Christian (Episcopalian) and a fan. I am also a member of a Christian monastic tertiary order which originally formed within fandom. I have however seen far too many non-Christians, particularly in fandom, tar all Christians with the Religious Right / Fundamentalist brush. I also do have friends with whom I will not talk politics, and friends with whom I will not talk religion.

[alicetheowl.livejournal.com]

I have however seen far too many non-Christians, particularly in fandom, tar all Christians with the Religious Right / Fundamentalist brush.

I run into that one all the time. Or the fundies who want me to "take their side" in an argument because they assume that all Christians think the same stuff is important. I'm a congregationalist (have you seen the "God is still speaking" commercials?), so my opinions are FAR more liberal than most Christians'. I can't identify myself as a Christian to strangers without someone getting in my face about Christian oppression. While I don't doubt for a second that SOMETHING sparked that kind of rage, it wasn't me or any of the beliefs I hold to.

I have to admit, though, one of the funniest moments of last year's Dragon*Con was being approached by a guy in a yellow polo with something about a Baptist church on the breast. He eyed one of the more scantily-clad girls in costume warily, like he was afraid she'd rush up and bite him, then asked, "Um, what's going on . . . here?"

They'd double-booked the hotel for Dragon*Con and a Baptist convention at the same time. I can't think about that without hooting with laughter.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I'm speaking as a recovering fundamentalist here.

Christianity has a hate/fear relationship with SF/F period. Not only is all fiction lies, but SF/F postulates either a humanistic future or a false past where God does not work as they understand he did. Life on other planets is obviously satanic.

Fandom is a waste of time, money and energy that should go to serving God. It can become an idol as well.

Oh, and in the Bible, the word "imagination" does not appear without being prefaced by "wicked."

That's the nutshell arguments that were used against my liking to read the occasional Edgar Rice Burroughs novel.

[jrtom.livejournal.com]

Christianity has a hate/fear relationship with SF/F period.

There's a non-trivial amount of SF/F written with Christian themes and with sympathetic portrayls of Christians and Christianity. Or are you just saying that there are a lot of fundamentalists that don't care about this evidence because they just _know_ that SF/F is evil?

I am a Christian in Fandom

[capplor.livejournal.com]

and, believe it or not I have strong opinions on certain matters. However, there are certain things about "love your neighbor" and "judge not lest ye be judged" that are a LOT more clear as a guide than a lot of the "Christian" (really right-wing) political agenda.


Robin

Re: I am a Christian in Fandom

[avt-tor.livejournal.com]

The trouble is that so-called "Conservative Christians" are neither conservative nor Christian in many cases.

[mia-mcdavid.livejournal.com]

My husband and I are socially and politically liberal, believing Christians. We are also Trufen; G has been in fandom since he was in high school, I've been for almost 30 years.

Yes, we feel that there's a tendency in fandom to equate Christianity with the right wing. However, there's that same tendency in the mainstream press due to the publicity claimed by the conservative Christian leaders. Even when the Episcopal Church ordaned a practicing gay biship, the big news was the conservative howl about it.

Non-Christians who know us have told us, once or twice, something on the order of "You prove that Christians don't have to be obnoxious." That means a lot to me.

With all due respect...

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

I've seen plenty of con programs with events specifically set aside for Christian worship services.
I've yet to see any events specifically set aside for worship services of any other known religion.

Personally, I can't see why a convention can't just be a place where people gather to talk about books, music, movies, comics, whatever and leave such concerns as religion and politics, which we're more or less bombarded with every other day, aside just for the span of one weekend.

Re: With all due respect...

[vulpine137.livejournal.com]

Hmm, never seen a con with christian worship stuff, then again I've only gone to a few cons in my life. Only thing close I've heard of is the Cthulhu prayer breakfasts at Necronomicon in RI, and that's not quite what I'd call 'Christian'.

But I'd have to agree, I can't see going to a scifi con and thinking 'Hmm, the space methodists have a worship service, must go to that.' Well unless they are fond of Orion slave girls ;)

[ericcoleman]

I think that the myth that the fellow raised in the other discussion is because ... real christians, as compared to the "christians" who are in it because they can use it to make money and get power, do not tend to bother other people with their religion.

I have a lot of friends in fandom who are christian. I have a lot of friends in fandom who are conservative. I find that most of them are as offended by what is being done in the name of christianity and conservatism as you are. The problem is that some conservatives take that as an attack on ALL christians and ALL conservatives and that's just silly. Sure there are folks who do attack all christians and all conservatives. I place them in the same category as the Pat Robertson's and Dubya's of the world. The only reason I tolerate them is that they tend to be funnier (at least on purpose).

A big part of the problem is that the public face, the face you see on TV, of conservatism and christianity is made up of fanatics. And that is never a good thing.

But it did sound as if the person in the other conversation is doing the same thing, judging ALL of fandom by the fanatics.

And of course you know, this means wawh

[scruffycritter.livejournal.com]

Not the mention the self-generating death spiral that dynamic creates. The ones who see it as an attack on all Christians and all conservatives, the Robertsons and the Dubyas, they all fire back in "retaliation"...

And some people on our side (Yes Tom, I include you) will see the acts of the extremists over there as an attack on all liberals and all non-Christians, fire back, and further militarize the opposition...giving them more fodder.

I ask this: How does it end? In fire?

As for your post, dare I say it -- Amen, Brother :-/

[beldar.livejournal.com]

There's no place for the strict us-vs.-them fundamentalist Christian in fandom, but it's not like we shun them, they keep their distance on their own (which doesn't stop them from telling anyone how evil/wrong we are).

There are a good number of us Christians mixed in with the Pagans, members of other faiths and nonbelievers, as I'm sure you know from the many cons you've been to. The assistant conchair of InConJunction attends church regularly, and also has a T-shirt of the Last Supper with RPG parephenalia inserted and the caption "Jesus Saves... and rolls half damage"

I've noticed some from the political right, as well. Part of that is from hanging around gamers, and especially miniatures wargaming types tend to have more conservative viewpoints.

But I'd much rather talk to someone whose politics or religion I don't share at a con, because odds are that person has well-constructed arguments and facts and has actually read up on the topic.

[batyatoon]

...that's a great shirt.
In exchange I show you this icon.

[palenoue.livejournal.com]

The biggest problem is there's so many variations of "Christian" and "Conservative" that it's impossible to tell just from those two words where someone stands. When someone tells me they're Christian, I always ask, "What kind?" and almost always get a confused or hateful stare back. Are you a christian who strives for peace and love and understanding, or one who thinks torture is perfectly okay as long as it's practiced on muslims picked up at random in foreign countries? If you say you are a conservative, are you one who believes in saving money and spending it responsibly, or giving it all to the rich while piling up monsterous debt? We need new terms, or at least some modifiers, because it's impossible to convey your beliefs with just those two words these days.

And as for christians in fandom, I remember seeing a news segment about a Star Trek con, and along with the usual trekkies featured they found a Roman Catholic priest, in full trek officer costume, and when the airhead interviewer asked "Aren't some people in the church against you attending this convention?" he replied, "I just remind them that Jesus turned water into wine, not grape juice, in order to keep a party going for another day. So they should lighten up on what I do in my free time."

binary questions

[the-blue-fenix.livejournal.com]

The biggest problem is there's so many variations of "Christian" and "Conservative" that it's impossible to tell just from those two words where someone stands. When someone tells me they're Christian, I always ask, "What kind?" and almost always get a confused or hateful stare back.

If you ask "God of love or God of hate?" and they quibble, it's the latter.

It's not like the 1960's where on the great divisive social issues you had Christians on both sides. E.g. the Civil Rights movement with the black church at the heart of it vs. the "God wants us to be segregated, says so right here" crowd. On the hard conservative front you have the Only True Christians who are happy to tell you all others are fakes, and on the liberal side you have...

(looking around)

Well, I'm in rural Texas. The bloody _Methodists_ are half creationist 'round here.

[markbernstein.livejournal.com]

All generalizations are wrong and dangerous, including this one.

An LJ discussion like this involves people from all over North America, if not the world. There are huge regional variations in all aspects of fandom, from practices to traditions to culture to prejudices. It's impossible to define the "relationship of conservatism and Christianity to SF/F fandom" because that definition will vary so much from region to region, even from con to con.

But that's not a very useful thing to say, is it? So I'm going to write up a few thoughts on what may be true of certain individuals within fandom, with the caveat that this is in no way intended to be descriptive of the majority, or even of a significant minority.

Religion:

If someone is not Christian, and lives in the United States, they are likely to have encountered prejudice. This is true whether they're Jewish, Muslim, pagan, atheist, or anything else. Naturally, the degree varies. I'm one of the fortunate ones - I've only been called a kike once in my life that I can recall. But I also know someone personally who was attacked and beaten because he's pagan. And I know a number of people who feel they have to keep their paganism in the closet around their neighbors and co-workers. (And it's not always about religion specifically. When members of the LGBT community encounter prejudice, for example, it's often couched in Christian terms.) And when I hear or read about prominent Christians in the news, it's most likely to be about someone on the far right fringes saying or doing something that I consider hateful.

I know that the majority of Christians aren't like that. I know that for many, many people, their Christian faith can offer strength, and comfort, and a moral framework, and a loving community. I believe that the majority of this majority is just as horrified by the hatemongers as I am. As such, I try very hard not to use a broad brush, to avoid language that treats all Christians as alike.

But those of us who aren't part of the Christian community don't really see or hear about the good stuff, because we aren't at the church to see it, and because most Christians are smart enough and empathetic enough to know that talking about the good parts of their faith sounds like proselytizing, and is therefore offputting. (That's actually unfortunate, in that it limits communication, but I don't have a good solution for it.)

So some non-Christians, based on what they hear and read in the news, based on prejudicial statements they hear from people they encounter in their everyday lives, and occasionally based on truly traumatic experiences, and not having constant reminders of the positive side of Christianity, develop a prejudice against Christians. It's not rational, and it's not right, but it's there.

The normal reaction to being the subject of prejudice is anger. And that anger, on both sides, makes real communication difficult. (It also makes it harder to see what, if any, community standards are in play. If one clump of half a dozen people is walking around a con wearing anti-Christian T-shirts and making anti-Christian statements, and no one publicly denounces them, does that mean that everyone at the con is prejudiced? Or is everyone else just thinking, "They're assholes, so I'm going to ignore them.")

Politics:

I have less to say here. We live in polarized times. The rhetoric on both sides is far too heated, and I've sometimes contributed to that. Again, we've reached a point where each side feels attacked by the other. And whoever's in the minority (which in recent years has been conservatives in fandom and liberals in the wider world) tends to feel put upon. But I do have conservative friends that I feel I can talk to, even argue with, without excessive animus.

Effective communication can be incredibly hard sometimes. All we can do is keep trying.

[lordavon.livejournal.com]

I sometimes feel out of step with fandom because I'm Christian, but then I shrug and move on. The people in fandom who constantly put down my religion are probably not the fen I would enjoy hanging out with because they just aren't...tolerant. There's a difference between, "Wow, I really dislike this and this and I feel Christians have been a cause in the problem" and "Wow, all the Christians are really making it awful for the rest of us."

I know many other Christians who've felt alienated in fandom, that if they speak up their christianity will count against them. I particularly remember one panel on religion in S/F I was on at Arisia, and afterwards a middle-aged woman walked up to me, took my hand, and said, "THANK YOU. I thought I was the only Christian in fandom. Thank you." Then she smiled and walked off before I could really respond. I've had others come up and talk to me about it because of panels.

I've personally never experienced outright hostility from fandom, however.

Part of the larger issue, I think, is fandom tends to be made up of those "not mainstream," and since Christianity tends to be viewed as mainstream, Christians naturally find themselves slightly off-base.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

One of my best friends is a politically conservative devout Congregationalist. Also a roleplayer, filk fan, and SF reader, though she doesn't often go to conventions except occasionally to stop into the dealer's room. She says she has a *really* hard time finding people to date, but not because her conservative Christian acquaintances object to fandom, simply because they're totally uninterested in it, so she doesn't have many fun-type interests in common with them. The people she meets through fandom generally act sufficiently intolerant and abusive about her political and religious convictions that she prefers to keep them at arms' length.

There have been times when we avoided specific topics in order to avoid fighting. We don't need to anymore; we've both gotten to the point where the particular issues on which we differ don't get either of us mad enough to fight with someone we care about.

On the flip side of your question-

[anneb.livejournal.com]

If we can detach the "Conservative" out of "Christian," what about detaching the "Christian" from "Conservative?"

Conservative atheists? I've always felt true Libertarianism is pretty conservative, myself- yes, I do tend to lean way to the left politically, not just religiously- yet the libertarian-and-fanatically-atheist set seems to do just fine, honestly.

At what point do the atheists-yet-still-conservatives start to not really fit?

Re: On the flip side of your question-

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

There are definitely political conservatives in both SF and fandom. In my experience, military SF writers tend to be political conservatives, regardless of religion...John Ringo, for example, but he's an extreme example.

I think that, generally, fandom tends to be more sensitive to social issue, and atheistic conservatives tend to be focused on the political (small government, fiscal responsibility, et cetera), not the moral.

If you announce "I think all amendments, even or especially the Second, are sacrosanct" to a fandom group, you may get argument, but it'll probably be civilized debate.

If you announce "I think anyone in any relationship other than a vanilla monogomous heterosexual one is wrong," then...well, you might get debate, but you might well also get ignored or kicked out on your ass.

And moral conservativism is usually a function of religion.

[shockwave77598.livejournal.com]

I'm a centrist, a christian, and a longstanding member of fandom. Basically, as long as someone doesn't do something to bother me or my friends, I don't concern myself with what they are into. Anyone being civil is shown civility in kind. I don't judge people for their gay Bab5 fanfiction if they don't judge me for playing with puppets, etc etc.

It's fandom - we are all a little bit wierd. So long as one is socially acceptable in public, I don't worry about what they do in private.

If everyone was so laid back, the world would run a lot smoother.

[gryphons.livejournal.com]

I've seen lots of variance..
I've been ordered, by the Con director, that I had to remove a shirt I was wearing because it was offensive to christians (at a con in Spartanburg,SC) even though no one had said anything to me previous to that

I've also been around a group of people that I know for a fact included christians, pagans, and atheists and the hottest topic of the moment was who's character would survive the next ten minutes.

and I've been at cons where we were scheduled with christian events.. and it took on a rather us(gamers/con participants)-vs-them attitude.. rather quickly.. and many interesting situations ensued.

To answer the question posed:
Truly, I think for the great many "Conservative Christians"=Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell/Oral Roberts( is he still alive?).(won't get started on my speech about that term). fandom in general.. is pretty much equated with anything non-christian. So basically a VERY hostile attitude. As far as most christians, that don't participate in fandom. I truly don't think they have a clue unless their church or friend start talking about how this game or that song, or that movie hurt soooo many people. I definately think it varies by locale. I've been talking about DC and some of the shows and books I read/watch at work.. and mostly I get blank stares..For christians that participate in fandom.. I've never had a problem with them.. 99% of the time I haven't had any problems or bad interactions with christians at cons.. (the time in spartanburg being the one exception) Truly most of the time I don't know who follows what Faith tradition or any faith tradition..

For me, personally, I'm Wiccan.. and fairly to extremely liberal in most cases..As far as conventions go, Mostly I'm there to enjoy myself with people that share my interests in tv/movies/rpgs/filking, I don't bring up religion unless asked and most of the time I don't go around proclaiming my religion but I don't hide my pentacles either. I've got friends with whom it cam be a .rather sticky situation to discuss religious ideas (my irish catholic big brother for example) but that doesn't mean that our relationship doesn't have some incredible.. and interesting turns when the topic does come up..

To answer you last question, I don't feel oppressed.. it can be quite.. a change to adjust to the openess that many parts of fandom offer compared to most of mainstream society.. (apologies for the essay)

[ladyjeanetta.livejournal.com]

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's responses to these excellent questions. The one important thing I've noticed about fandom is its willingness, nay, it's *eagerness* to talk about the big questions.

I'm a Churchgoing Catholic, generally pretty liberal politically-speaking. My ex-boyfriend (who's still one of my best friends) is Wiccan. I've got friends in fandom who are atheist, friends who are agnostic, friends who are Conservative Republicans... and we love to TALK. About fandom, about what we really believe, about the state of the world today. Yada yada yada.

I have yet to meet anyone at a fan event who made me feel uncomfortable about being Catholic. And I have to admit, fandom has helped me be a more-- accepting is the wrong word. Let's just say it's shown me that there are so many different KINDS of people out there. It's phenomenal. And the potential for sharing ideas is limitless.

[greenlantern-oa.livejournal.com]

Been a christian my whole life, still attend a southern baptist church. I have never really had a problem with people in church not approving of what I read, watch or talk about, and I really wouldn't care if they did anyways. Yeah I had an instance back in 1986 where another child called me "unspiritual" because I had a Ninja Turtle (Michealangelo) and was playing with it at a church picnic (my mom snuffed that out real fast by verbally bashing the other child and his mother for it).
My entire family is pretty conservative but not in a crazy control freak way. They have always been the sort to frown upon the others in church who make us all look nutty and idiotic. I mean my parents attend Jimmy Buffet Concerts religiously EVERY Year and my dad watches Star Gate, Dr. Who (since it was first brought over to the U.S.), the Twilight Zone, and Star Trek so I guess I am saying that they are pretty well rounded individuals that go to church and believe in God and Jesus that's it.
They do not approve of forcing religion down others throats and my dad gave me a speach on that at an early age in my life.

As for fandom, well I learned from my dad. He gave me ALL is Silver Age Comics which got me hooked on comic books (and worked at a store and have a collection that takes up a storage unit). My mom started me off on Sci Fi by sitting me down in front of "Lost in Space" and "Land of the Giants" with her in the mornings (got to the point where I would fake being sick to stay home and watch those shows on USA at 10 in the morning) and giving me Jurassic ark to read in the 6th grade.
I started reading at an early age and my parents would suggest books to me like Thomas Convenant series, Lord of the Rings, The Sword of Shanarra, H.P. LoveCraft, Tarzan, Alice in Wonderland, etc.
I was hooked as I said and I just started paving my own road through fandom. I have so many friends with different backgrounds and it does not bother me in the least, nor does it bother them. We have debates on fandom, religion and on politics. We all have our ideas but we have civic and friendly discussions/debates about everything so NO topic is taboo.

I do think that there is a big negative generalization on christianity in fandom though and have had to stick my neckout more times then not to say that not all christians are Bible thumping morons. It can be upsetting but I have learned to live with it and show people how wrong they are about it. Fandom can be the most accepting group in the world! Christians CAN use their imagination and I don't think that many frown upon SciFi as we would like to think..... I think a lot of them are closet fans anyways ;)
I remember reading an essay in a religious magazine explaining WHY SciFi should be read by Christians (I know I have that article still and I should try to find it and post it somewhere).

This is also my first year I WON'T be attending DragonCon due to trying to buy my own home and a certain tropical storm blasting us right now in South Florida!! It kills me that I won't be there this year ARGH!!
I love to hear the filking (GO TOM)!!, see the costumes and meet people who like the same stuff as I do no matter what they believe!!!

Fandm and politics

[nezmaster.livejournal.com]

When I first fell into fandom I fell in with a bunch of libreterian conservatives. All theoritically educated, all of course middle class and white. As I expanded my social circles I ran across more low income fans, and therefore (IMO) more liberal fans. Low Income educated people I meet tend to be liberal. High Income educated people I meet seem less so.

(Notice I said people I meet, not people in general, fans in general, or anything else. I can only base this on 'people I meet' which has no other scientific value).

Most 'fans' I meet in the context of sf cons and gaming seem apolitcal. IE they stay embroiled in their fantasy worlds and out of poltiics. As a very liberal politcal person, this sometimes makes me sad or at least out of place.

From my end of things, theres plenty of liberals and conservatives in fandom. Keep in mind of course, that gaming has a strong military component, and sometimes a strong conservative component as a result.

I have had quite a few freinds I don't talk about politics with. I should note I don't 'hang out' with them either, except when we fall into the same game.

I don't think I feel particularly oppressed for my social views in any subculture, nor do I see anyone who is. My gaming group had a hardline bush conservative in it for awhile. Nobody chastised him, he got along fine.

Most of the fannish conversations I over hear are of a libreterian bent, so I hardly think conservatives are being oppressed either.

My girlfriends christian, and though she sometimes feels like she's the only one, I know she's not. And she certainly knows that's not true for the world as a whole.

I think theres room for everyone in fandom, if not neccesarily around me. :)

Re: Fandm and politics

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Low Income educated people I meet tend to be liberal. High Income educated people I meet seem less so.

Actually, that's pretty accurate in my experience as well.
Religion and gender figure in, though.
Very religious Christians, no matter how educated or low income, tend more toward conservatism.
Women tend more to the liberal across all parts of the income spectrum. And as they age, they tend to get more liberal as well. (the theory is that as they age they encounter more sexism and start fighting it)

[sunfell.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion. I've noted that fandom is quite eclectic, which makes it a lot of fun. I call myself AntagoGnostic, but I started life as a Catholic, and wandered through various sects of Paganism, before ditching the whole thing for agnosticism.

One thing I always do is figure out what 'flavor' of Christian I am dealing with when I meet one. Some are minty fresh. Others leave a nasty taste in my psyche. I've had run ins with the extreme conservative sorts, and can say that I really have been persecuted by self-righteous True Believers™. Not fun.

I run a community called [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] where we discuss the extreme sects of Christianity and their political influence on government and society. There, we make a very clear distinction between moderate/liberal, conservative, fundementalist, evangelical and Dominionist Christians. The last one is the really seriously dangerous sort, who want to turn this country into a theocracy and rule it with Biblical laws. These people wouldn't touch fandom, science fiction or any kind of gathering like what we enjoy with a 20-foot pole, and would sneer at any believer who would have anything to do with us. They call SF 'speculative fiction' and some of their websites block fan and writer sites. They have a hard enough time with fringe people who are human- forget anything outworldly.

I've learned this in my long journey through life: a zealot is a zealot is a zealot- a thoroughly unpleasant and nasty creature, and what faith they practice is not really important. Scratch the surface of any zealot and you see a fear and hate filled person who is not comfortable enough with their beliefs to trust themselves with it, and who must challenge all comers about it. I've met Pagan, Christian, political and other sorts of zealots, and my immediate desire is to put as much real estate between me and them as possible.

Most of my friends are Christians of one flavor or another. I accept that, and they accept me and my eccentricities. We have a tight little SF club in Little Rock which meets regularly, and I am probably one of the few Pagans there. That does not bother me. We're all equally appalled at the state of our country and the bullying tactics of the Christocrats, and wish they'd just shut up and go away. Or hope that our votes will run them out of office.

Fandom is fun. Let's hope that it stays that way.

[ldwheeler.livejournal.com]

Hmmmmm. I was mentally preparing a fairly long response, but then I saw that markbernstein did a far better and more comprehensive job than I could have hoped to. So I'll just make a few quick mutterances.

I'm a Christian, and my doctrine is more or less of the evangelical bent, with a number of caveats: I have no problem reconciling science with faith, for one thing -- I don't think a strict biblical literalism is necessary to Christian faith, and it doesn't trouble me to acknowledge that Terra's got a loooooooooonnnnnng geologic and biological history behind it. I drink the occasional wine/beer/spirit (like, uh, Jesus, who actually MADE wine). I'm a political independent/moderate who's leaned Democratic in recent years, largely in reaction to the many, many excesses of the current administration. And I don't make a vocation out of being offended, like some of my brethren.

And in my years of fandom -- since 1990, when a friend, also a Christian and highly active in fandom (filk, concoms, etc.) talked me into driving him and various friends to a Pa. con -- I've rarely if ever experienced an overt hostility toward Christianity. I have experienced hostility to those, of whatever religion (but, in North America, that'd largely be Christianity), who try to enforce their own beliefs on other people, who try to force society to follow their dictates. I share that hostility, in fact.

Any rate, I've found fandom to be highly diverse, on many levels. Religiously speaking, I've known fellow fen of various flavors of Christianity, various flavors of Judaism, assorted Wiccan and Pagan beliefs, a couple handfuls of Unitarians, assorted steps on the agnosticism-to-atheism line, probably a Scientologist or two at the L. Ron table, and others who've never said. Some folks are threatened by that diversity, if they feel their own nuances should be the norm for all (that's why it's rare to find hardcore fundamentalists from any religion in fandom). But most of us embrace it. I think it's great that one of the era's biggest names in SF/F is an outspoken conservative Mormon, no matter what I might think of his politics or religion. I think it's great that we can have this discussion.

I understand what the post-er on your previous thread meant -- but I think the pervasive hostility he/she says he's experiencing may be a special case, may be the biases of specific individuals in a specific region.

OK, I'm done. Hope this helps.

[markbernstein.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much for the kind words.

[poltr1]

I'm not sure how much I can add to the discussion, but I'll chip in my two cents anyway.

Background info: I grew up Catholic, but left the faith and became pagan (as many neopagans do). There are things I miss about the church (the ritual, the music), and things I don't miss (the dogma, the hierarchy, the politics).

As tolerant as SF fandom is in general toward diversity, I occasionally encounter pockets of intolerance, especially toward Christians and conservatives. It's an "us and them" mindset, one that I'd like to think I've outgrown.

A few years ago, I saw a bumper sticker on a dealer's table that offended me. On one side were the words "This is your brain" next to a pentacle. On the other side were the words "This is your brain on drugs" next to a cross. I don't think I've bought anything from that dealer ever since.

About 10 years ago, as a challenge piece for myself, I wrote a Christian filk song. I've only performed it three times. Reactions ranged from indifference to favorable to "Let's pick up this theme and run with it" (and I didn't know whether to feel complimented or insulted).

Of the Christian fen I've met over the years, none of them are of the fundamentalist/evangelical type on which the stereotype is based.

[technocracygirl.livejournal.com]

I wonder how much of the "fandom is hostile to Christians" is due to the fact that, quite possibly for the first time in their lives, the Christians are outnumbered? All through elementary school, I was one of three kids who was Jewish, and if there were any Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, or "other" there, they kept it really quiet. I never got ragged on about it, but it is a difference, if only minor. My circle of friends is almost sans monotheists, let alone Christians, but the outside world (work, popular culture) still has an overlay of Christianity about it. It's well-nigh unescapable.

But then there's cons. And there are a ton of atheists and agnostics. There are pagans of just about any flavor you can think of. There's the smattering of other world religions, both popular and non. There's the Jedi. There's the people who don't give a darn (who may or may not be classified withthe atheists and/or agnostics.) And there's the Christians. If, with every con badge given out at PickACon, you were to ask, "What are your spiritual beliefs?" how many people would describe themselves as Christian? Would it be above 50%? Maybe. But maybe not. And finding oneself to be in the minority when one is used to being in the majority can be remarkably disconcerting.

Me? Meh, I will toddle along being the token Jew and never eating at the hospitality suite at Norwescon because it's usually during Pesach.

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

I think you have a point, m'self. Christian is in most parts of this country the 'default' social setting. One assumes one is generally around Christians (using the term nebulously and all-inclusively)... and that social underpinning is not there to the same degree in fandom. I haven't seen any serious research, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that fandom has a much higher percentage of Atheists, Agnostics and Pagans than society at large, or at the very least a lower percentage of Christians.

I suspect 'Christian' (and that, ranging from 'devout' to 'I guess I believe *shrug*) still forms a majority of fandom, but not by much, and perhaps only a plurality. Going from (ballpark guess) 75-80% of American society to (ballpark guess) 40-50% of fannish society is culture shock.

However, I've always believed culture shock is a good thing. It forces one to re-examine their subtle prejudices and preconceptions. I remember being shocked to discover in myself that I felt uncomfortable on the city bus when there were more blacks than whites on board--actually, I felt like shit to discover that, because I "knew" I hadn't a racist bone in my body. I took steps to re-adjust my worldview thereafter. I hope I became a better person for confronting myself.

In short, I don't think fandom is hostile to Christianity. Fandom just has a different societal basis, one where Christianity is merely a component, not by and large the component.

[signy1.livejournal.com]

I work in a bookshop, and people often ask for recommendations, especially for their kids. I've noticed that particularly conservative people of several religions can get very upset by fantasy literature. The reaction to SF is usually along the lines of "Oh, I don't like all that Star Trek stuff." Dismissive, a bit simplistic, but there's no real emotion. The reaction to fantasy, on the other hand-- especially if there's a wizard on the cover-- is often a longwinded denunciation of Satan and all his works. If I'm really lucky I get to hear conspiracy theories about how C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were secretly trying to turn kids into Satanists. And I only wish I were exaggerating.

Extrapolating a bit, (and I'm perfectly well aware that a few loonies here and there do not a representative sample of a religion as a whole make,) I would assume that the extremely conservative could conceivably enjoy SF as much as the atheist down the road, but that fantasy (including D&D, which is a whole 'nuther can of worms altogether,) might be a bit more problematic.

The Bible, after all, says nothing on the subject of spacers and aliens. It is, however, painfully clear on the subject of witches and magic. And dragons are seemingly considered a saints' rightful prey.

[ldwheeler.livejournal.com]

Hey, I've heard some ultraconservative Christians argue that certainly there's life on other planets -- demon life. And some take it even further, that science fiction numbs us to the inevitable demon takeover.

I know, I know. But that's no weirder than Lewis and Tolkien, the tweediest of tweedy Anglicans and Catholics, being closet satanists.

Sigh. People are strange.

[trdsf.livejournal.com]

Heck, it was a conservative Catholic that gave me a serious introduction to the world of filk in the first place--and she has done better than I at not talking politics around the other. :)

Religion, I've never found to be an impediment. I'm a relatively recently minted Atheist, previously neo-Pagan, raised Catholic. I will gladly discuss theology with the only ground rule being no flat statements as to who is right and who is wrong.

Politics, I prefer to keep out of fandom, and I never found it to be a problem until the neocon wing of the party started dividing the country into "patriots" and "terrorist sympathizers". You can't have a meaningful dialogue with a mind like that. I can talk to a conservative, to a real conservative in the mold of Barry Goldwater and Bob Michel. I can't talk to a Bushie.

[jgalak.livejournal.com]

Funny, I've found that the problem occurred when the lefties divided the country into "liberals" and "idiots". You can't have a meaningful dialogue with a mind like that. I can talk to a liberal, to a real liberal in the mold of FDR and Wilson. I can't talk to a an "Everything that goes wrong is Bush's fault."

:)

In general, I find fen to be far more intloerant of conservatives than of christians.

[madrona.livejournal.com]

Conservative Christianity and SF/F are entirely compatable, although conservativism tends to alter one's personal choice in material. More Tolkein, less Tepper. And tendency to shudder visibly at the more bondagey con costumes. Aside from the fact that strict conservatives seem to have power *issues*, that's all I can say about conservativism.

As a Christian fan who is neither conservative nor liberal, (Yes, Jesus was a hippie. He was also celibate, and NOT always a pacifist.) I likes me some Silmarillion and some The Fresco. I play D&D, which annoys some relatives of mine to no end, and encourage the offspring of those relatives to play D&D because it's more productive than hanging out bored until one of their friends comes up with something destructive to do, because there's nothing to do in Alaska. The parents of these people...would rather they not have fun. Which is sad, because this is creating the impression that Christians are not fun. Which is usually a bald-faced lie. Or should be. But I digress.

You can be tolerant of someone and *disagree*. And that's what most conservative Christian fans usually do. The truth is, there's very little that happens in public fandom that a Christian is forbidden from. Games? Cool with Jesus. Fictional stories that serve as mind-openers and allegories? A classic. Singing? Practically required. Debate and discussion? Expected. So why is there a percieved problem?

I've been to some of the Christian track at Orycon, and their main gripe seemed to be that non-Christian teen fans were using cons to look for...wait for it...kinky sex. See, the traditional Christian doctrines look poorly upon people having kinky sex outside marriage. So premarital hanky panky makes many Christians sad by its very existance.

As for me, it seems pretty clear that the whole point of the Sermon on the Mount was that nobody, but nobody, was living up to Jesus' standards anyhow. Thus the whole requirement for the personal Savior and the bleeding, and dying, and miracles, and whole grain bread. So, if somebody hasn't accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, whether or not they screw around matters only in terms of physical and psychological consequences. Which they have to make the choice to take, or not.

Point being, Christians cannot prevent sin. IF we try to do so by preventing personal choice, when there is no clear and pressing harm to others, we come off as assholes. Again, not people you want to be around, or be. If instead, we tolerate, and hang out, and bring chips, and wait until someone *asks* our opinion, we become the people you want at your party.

I don't know why the conservatives haven't picked up on this, yet.

[scott644.livejournal.com]

I've seen the discrimination flow both ways. Both by fen toward fundies, and fundies toward fandom. I observe a Christian religion myself and I find the experience disturbing because I don't see a need for the two to be so opposed, yet fanatics on every side continue to develop a culture that fosters such hatred.

One positive point that should encourage all who were there however - I still hold fondly in my heart, the memory of the Full Gospel Millennicon.