Audio Tech Party!

[filkertom]

Some very nice people have been offering to help with my noisy tech situation. Actually, it looks as if I've got that nailed, and all I had to do was rearrange the room, record vocals on a different computer, and turn the lights off. ;)

But it occurs to me, especially given a couple of the comments, that other folks might have audio tech issues that we can whack on together. I don't claim at all to be an expert -- but I have picked up a few things here and there. And some of you are experts, and love problem-solving to boot.

So, anybody have any questions or problems with making music? Looking for an instrument or effect? Can't get the file to play? Want recommendations on equipment? Have a new recording for us to critique? Go into as much or as little detail as you like. The only rules are Be Polite And Helpful (e.g., don't say, "Well, the problem isn't the reverb, it's that the song bites"), Don't Ask Too Much (e.g., "Can someone recommend a good set of mics, an audio workstation, some monitor speakers, several MIDI instruments, a half-dozen useful effects, and a few session musicians who work cheap?" or "Tell me every detail about your last nineteen recording sessions so I can help you properly") and No System Bashing (PC, Mac, and Open Source all have superb music options these days. Any help you can give that happens to be cross-platform is especially welcome).

To intercept some questions before they're asked, here are some Wikipedia areas you may find useful:

• Audio Engineering
• Soundfonts
• VST
• Sound Recording
• Recording Studio

Comments

[phillip2637.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the invitation. :-)

The main techie musical question in my head these days is whether high-end DAW software has features that would be useful to someone who is now, and always will be, non-pro. I've created two MP3s for Filk Archive using Cubase LE (which I find sparse, but functional) to arrange the MIDI and recorded tracks. Anything less capable would bother me, but I'm not sure how much of -- oh, let's say Sonar 6 -- I'd ever use. (I don't understand the purpose of about 75% of its spec. list, but learning is fun!)

So, I guess the most useful responses for me would be about what features people can't live without once they've got them.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Well, I can tell you the three I can't live without: VST/VSTi compatability, nonlinear nondestructive editing, and volume & panning envelopes. As far as I know, they're features of most of the DAWs out there. Seriously, almost everything else is gravy.

However, there are some things I would miss intensely. Reaper wants to be a DAW, but its loop handling is awful. Audible delays at every loop point. Eeugh. Very disappointing.

More....

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Regarding whether you actually want to use those high-end features: dunno. You never know unless and until you use them. If they're effects, there are, I think, three questions you have to ask about them: How do they sound, is the price increase of the overall software worth it, and can you find a free or low-cost version as good or better?

Fortunately, most programs these days have demo versions (although the really high-end ones, especially Cubase and Sonar, seem to make you want to jump through several hoops just to install the darn things). You might also want to check out this thread at KVR Audio (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150200), and this list (http://making-music.blogspot.com/2006/01/big-list-of-free-music-making-software.html) and this list (http://making-music.blogspot.com/2006/02/list-with-recommended-commercial-music.html) at Making Music.

Re: More....

[phillip2637.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Tom.

Concerning "host wars", if I do decide to upgrade, I'm pretty sure it will be Sonar [something] because a Cubase upgrade would get me into dongle territory and because the Cakewalk people give nice price breaks to once-upon-a-time customers who return to the fold...even ones who have taken a 12-year holiday.

It's just when they talk about things like "Multitrack Audio Quantize" and "VariPhrase Vocal Processor" that I begin to suspect a marketer got loose. But maybe someone finds those indispensible.

Probably you know about The Recording Project, but just in case.... Having found it recently, I'm having a good time reading their old forum threads. (http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/index.php) ()

Re: More....

[hms42]

Thanks for that heads up. I am also bookmarking this thread for my usage in the future. (Tom's whole thread, not just your part.)

Also, Tom, didn't a conversation about recording go thru your LJ back in January??

(I am pointing a few people this direction since they have been asking me for advice this weekend.)

Harold

Re: More....

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

There were a number of different threads, back in May especially. Trying to track them all down now seems counterproductive, although I did mention a few in a reply to giza in the "Squee?" thread below.

[ericcoleman]

Yeah ... how can I get over this recording funk I am in ... and finally get my new CD done ... it's only a year late now

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Start doing it. Just start doing it. I find it's much easier to work with existing tracks and edit or even redo the darn things if the canvas has something on it.

Even if it's just the simplest scratch track... just start doing it.

[blaisedec.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to set my system up to transfer music from old cassettes and LPs. The system I was intending to use is dual-boot WinXP MCE and Kubuntu Dapper Drake. I bought a USB audio bridge to use, and trying to use the included software was a nightmare (can't get it to work; when the USB audio [which only has input] is attached I can't get output to go to the speakers). I haven't yet figured out how to tell Kubuntu to use the USB sound device as input; I was expecting to use Gramofile there unless someone has a better idea. Suggestions?

[mdlbear]

Try running "discover" with the USB sound device plugged in, and also make sure that the alsa-oss module is installed in case gramofile is more comfortable with the old oss api than with alsa.

[blaisedec.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, that doesn't find it, and the alsa-oss module is installed. I've found reference to someone who got it working (in Fedora) and have sent him (as he requested) email asking for specifics.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Woof. I am unfortunately pants at Linux and its variations. This is gonna sound stupid, but... any reason you can't do it on the Windows side? Alternately, do you have a regular sound card you can use for line-in input from the turntable/cassette deck?

[blaisedec.livejournal.com]

On the Windows side, if I plug in the *input-only* USB device it insists on making *output* go to that device, so I can't hear what I'm working with to check little things like, oh, levels. No clue what's wrong there either, and *I'm a computer techie*.

[nimitzbrood.livejournal.com]

Alsa is often problematic at the best of times. I'm assuming this is one of those 1/4" -> USB cables? What exactly are we talking about here.

Did you try running some version of alsamixer? Also Kubuntu may have a multimedia selection choice off the menu that will set up the media settings for you.

It may be that alsa is muting the speakers when bringing the input live.

Try running sudo alsaconf in a terminal window and see if it sees the USB audio device.

Let me know how you do with that and I'll see what I can help you with. I use Ubuntu daily at work so I have some knowledge of it.

[blaisedec.livejournal.com]

No, this is a Xytel INPort -- a box with dual RCA in and USB out. The lack of output problem is on the Windows side (even when I set input to INPort and output to the internal sound card); on the Kubuntu side, how do I use asoundconf to set one card as input and another card as output? I only see how to set both at once.

[blaisedec.livejournal.com]

OK, I've figured enough out! A) Use Audacity to record; its interface lets me select separate cards for input and output. (I also got told that the INport is set to take input from MIC at power-on even though there's no MIC jack; Audacity takes care of this without my having to worry about it.) B) Figure out the appropriate way to cable to the receiver. The key turned out to be that I can't go from TAPE2 IN to either TAPE1 or TAPE2 OUT; I have to go from TAPE1 IN to TAPE2 OUT.

I can now take input from the stereo system through the INport, and direct it through the motherboard sound card to the PC speakers. That's enough for tonight; I'll make a large wav file tomorrow or Tuesday to feed into Gramofile for cleaning and splitting into tracks.

[nimitzbrood.livejournal.com]

Excellent! I was going to suggest Audacity because of just those reasons. I use a Griffen iMic for input and standard sound for output when recording my podcast segments on my Ubuntu ThinkPad so I knew it was possible.

I had to use alsaconf (asoundconf must be the newest incarnation of that utility) to make sure it created both sound devices then I would be able to pick and choose between them using things like audacity.

What'd you pay for the INport and where'd you get it? The iMic works wonderfully for most things but I'd like something a little better.

[mdlbear]

There ought to be an LJ community for this sort of thing, if there isn't already. And maybe even if there is -- a filk-specific home recording and publishing community would be a useful resource.

As for me, I'm happily using Linux (Debian Etch, mostly) and Audacity. No MIDI projects so far. My recording setup is a pair of fanless Mini-ITX boxen: one operating as an X terminal, and the other as a recorder using an M-Audio Delta-66 board.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

That's really a good idea. I am unfortunately too busy to start it myself right this minute, but in a couple of weeks I could be set up with FAQs and everything. Any suggestions for a good name? Something like filk_audio or filk_recording?

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

filkandhoney :)

Noise!

[wormquartet.livejournal.com]

My immediate problem, upon hooking up my brand-spankin'-new large-diaphragm jobber with the pre-amp, is that I'm suddenly getting a lot more environment. Obviously I can filter out the minor room noises, but there's some echo I don't particularly want.

I'm guessing this means I need to throw some blankets up or something...any suggestions here?

-=ShoEboX=-

Re: Noise!

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Two. If you don't have one already, make a cheap mic baffle -- and when I mean cheap, I mean Ye Classic nylon over the circle made from one end of a wire coat hanger -- to go between you and the mic. And, make sure all the fluorescent lights in the place are off. They cause more buzz in the lines than anything shy of that brick power supply I've got.

I also found a several potentially useful pages here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=home+vocal+recording&btnG=Search). (It's always fun trying to figure out exactly what the heck to Google.)

Anybody else?

Re: Noise!

[mdlbear]

I don't think I'm having problems with fluorescents -- if I am, it's the end of recording after sundown. All the lights in our house are fluorescents.

Of course, with my almost-60-year-old ears, I may just not be hearing the problems.

Re: Noise!

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Seriously, my old ears seem to be a problem. As for incandescent lights, I got a couple of $8 clip-on desk lamps; they work fine.

Re: Noise!

[wormquartet.livejournal.com]

I'm got a pop filter...not really having much problem with electronic noisy stuff, mostly just worried about the echo.

-=ShoEboX=-

Re: Noise!

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Ah. (Thanks -- I can never remember the name of that stupid thing.) You also might try a blanket or throw rug on the floor, if you've got exposed hardwood or tile. Or just putting some empty cardboard boxes between you and the walls.

Re: Noise!

[wormquartet.livejournal.com]

Ahh...yes, the hardwood floor may be the issue. Most of my walls are already covered with musical equipment, video game systems, and Pac-Man memorabilia.

Thankee.

-=ShoEboX=-

[tomreedtoon.livejournal.com]

Okay, guys. Field recording question.

For the most part, I've used Sony Minidisc recorders. They're small, portable, easy to use, have good recording quality, and work well. Problem is, either they're breaking on me, or the disks I'm using are too old or too inferior. They seem to be shutting down at inopportune moments. There's also the problem of transfer; they have to transfer into a computer in real time. (I can't afford the new super-duper Minidiscs that transfer through a USB port.)

So, what do you guys do for field recording? Forget cassette; it should be some kind of digital form of recording. I thought about recording into a laptop PC, either via USB or Firewire - but one that's fast enough to record, with enough disk drive space, would be kind of expensive, plus there's that sound card problem, and it's too bulky to carry around. There's also the iRiver, some of which can record onto internal hard drives, but I don't know about the sound quality. So, wha'cha think?

[mdlbear]

Laptop and USB interface. 2 channels, 24 bits/sample, 96K samples/sec fits comfortably in USB 1.1; anything capable of USB-2.0 should have no problems with it. Or you could do as I do, and make a fanless Mini-ITX box.

I've been using an 800MHz cpu with a 4-channel PCI interface to record directly to a network share using NFS.

I wouldn't use anyt interface with less than 24 bits unless there was AGC on the input, otherwise there's not enough headroom between too quiet and clipping.

[hms42]

I just recorded a housefilk in NYC tonight into my 2006 laptop. For most of my previous filksing recordings, I have been using a 4 year old laptop with a Creative labs USB Sound Blaster. (Laptop is a p4 Dell purchased USED at a computer show, mixing board is connected to the RCA jacks on the sound card.)

I use a mixing board that I carried with me to plug some generic (cheaper) microphones into and feeding that into the USB sound card. I also used that to record a CD for one person and have recorded much of their 2nd and 3rd CD on the same machine. (I am running Windows on that machine.)

At Worldcon in LA , during the dead dog, I was recording once we moved rooms via the built in speaker on my MacBook Pro (not recommeneded!)

I have seen some DECENT used machines running about $500 at the computer shows in my area. (Low-Mid P4 machines.) At least 20gig of storage would be recommended if you go that route. The most I have come home from a con with has been about 4 gig of recordings, but I was going a bit nuts that con and spent a lot of time in concerts and went straight into an open filk. If you are looking for yourself. my setup would be a bit overkill. (Then again, its lately being used to produce filk CDs.)

Harold

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Laptop, M-Audio Audio Buddy phantom power, AKG C1000S, plugged into the plain ol' line-in jack. AC97 isn't perfect, but it actually does well enough.

There are a few new machines I've got my eye on, that might do all of us very well -- one powerhouse, two compact beyond belief.

• Boss BR600 (http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=753) -- a digital 8-track studio, complete with effects, drum machine, and built-in mics, about the size and weight of a three-ring binder, for $400
• Boss Micro BR (http://bossus.com/index.asp?pg=1&tmp=157) -- even smaller, with MP3 export
• M-Audio Microtrack (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html) -- smaller yet, not as functional, but records and exports .WAV files

I have the feeling these pieces of hardware are gonna shake things up big-time.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

One other thing -- I record to an external hard drive specifically devoted to that. USB 2.0 is fast enough for data transfer; the trick is that the hard drive has to be fast enough as well, at least 7200 RPM -- 5400 won't cut it.

[mdlbear]

I'm guessing that the problem with slow external drives is the seek time and how the USB driver handles interrupts.

The advantage of using a network drive is that recording and storage are happening on separate CPUs, plus there are a couple of extra layers of buffering to smooth things out.

I've also noticed that a video card with shared memory (such as you find on laptops and Mini-ITX boards) can cause problems, which is why I use a separate X terminal. Again, this is a driver/interrupt handling problem; I've been told that turning off the Direct Rendering Interface fixes it. Possibly just a Linux thing.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Heh. Shared video memory is for suckers and old folks. It's not a problem if you're not doing anything challenging -- but any hobby computer, graphics, gaming, audio, video, whatever, needs to have a decent video card, partly for the actual video quality and partly to take the strain off the rest of the system.

Re: recording and HD, the problem isn't slow external drives -- it's slow drives. Seek time and driver issues enter into it, I'm sure, but the bottom line is smackin' a whole lot of .WAV data onto the plate in real time. An internal 7200 RPM would be just fine, I'm sure; it happens that I use both a desktop and a laptop, and it's way more convenient for me to record to an external drive and swap it between the two.

[mdlbear]

When you have a Mini-ITX board that only has one PCI slot, you have to choose whether you want to use it for video or the 24-bit sound card. I use it for sound, and put the video on a separate CPU.

Laptops don't seem to have any major problem recording sound, and until recently they were all 5400 RPM. 32-bit, 2-channel audio like you have in Audacity is only 20MB/minute; you can do that easily on a 5400 RPM drive provided you have enough buffering and don't let writing the data keep you from handling the interrupts. Windows may well be very bad at this.

[lambchopjones.livejournal.com]

hi. i'm almost stereo, the one that knitmeapony posted about. thanks for the info. i've just been using the internal mic on my laptop and muddling through with adobe audition. mostly for myself. i know the quality sucks, but i'm working on it. thanks again for the info.