Happy Birthday, Jacob Grimm

[filkertom]

On this date in 1785. He became famous for being transformed by cosmic rays into the Ever-Lovin' Blue-Eyed...






... Sorry. Wrong guy. This Grimm, and his brother Wilhelm, collected Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Different approach from normal: What fairy tales bug you the most? For me, trying to describe the plot of Rumplestiltskin is like trying to describe the plot of The Rocky Horror Show. It makes absolutely no frickin' sense at all.

Comments

[cavalorn.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that 'Rumpelstiltskin' actually translates as 'crinkly foreskin'.

Hence, an ideal name for a little ugly dwarf.

[batyatoon]

... I DID NOT KNOW THAT.

I can't decide whether or not I was happier before I knew that.

[rmeidaking.livejournal.com]

The problem with most of the Germanic folk stories, of which Rumpelstiltskin is just one example, is that the social background in which they're set no longer exists, and in fact the social structure was so outrageous that we don't accept it as a given fact. In many ways, the social structures of medieval Europe are more alien than anything being written as alternative social fiction today.

[rdmaughan.livejournal.com]

In addition many of the stories were cleaned up at some point. Both Rumplestiltskin and Cinderella were much smuttier originally.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Without doubt on both counts. William Goldman made that point hilariously with the "omitted" second chapter of The Princess Bride. But a lot of the underlying elements of the stories, e.g., Cinderella's being abused by her foster family, the jealousy of the Queen toward Snow White, etc., are readily understandable.

[ladystarblade.livejournal.com]

Eh, the fairy tale that gives me the heebies is the original "Little Mermaid." I know that Hans Christian Andersen's responsible for that one, but it messed with me something fierce. I hadn't read the story before I saw the movie, so I went into the story thinking it was happy like the movie...hahahah, I was so wrong. Cutting out tongues, walking on knives...hell, it ends with a suicide!

That warped my 10 year old mind...then people wonder why I turned out this way, LOL.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the warp. I was well aware of the story (I was also 29) when I saw the Disney movie, and I was impressed with how they handled it. I still think HCA was a sadistic bastard with a grudge against kids. His "tales" are as gruesome as anything Hollywood's put out in the past thirty years.

[ladystarblade.livejournal.com]

One of my most treasured books is an 1888 edition of HCA's tales, and wow, I can't look at fairy tales in the same way again.

And I was warped long before I tripped across this stuff, LOL!

[fuuberry.livejournal.com]

Frell, I was warped by a cartoon of The Little Mermaid when I was a kid. It was a Japanese one, and they included the bits about every step being painful and the dagger. This was after I'd seen the Disney version, but at the point where I'd already read the Grimm version of Cinderella, and I was bloody terrified to see what else was left out.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

There was a piece someone wrote on LiveJournal over a year ago...

http://siderea.livejournal.com/201206.html

I think it's a great bit of writing and of sociology in general, and especially check out her brief discussion of Grimm. Apparently the tales are, to say the least, out of vogue in primary-education circles, and some of her classmates didn't understand why...and when they realized that, for example, Cinderella is about passively accepting abuse until you are swept away, and Beauty and the Beast is pretty much the anti-Lifetime Original Movie, they were quite shocked.

(The points raised about Disney versus "original" are another topic, one I'm not touching on until I'm sure I have my thoughts in order...but I know the theme is "is the Disney version somehow less because it's a rewrite?")

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Believe me, that Disney thing is indeed a whole 'nother discussion. Although, and I address this to ladystarblade above as well, did you get the new DVD of The Little Mermaid, and see their short adaptation of The Poor Little Matchgirl? They did it straight. So sad, so freakin' beautiful.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

that Disney thing is indeed a whole 'nother discussion.

I know, that's why I trashed what was going to be a rant on the topic.

[ladysmith.livejournal.com]

You're KIDDING?!? They did *Matchgirl* straight???

Bedamned. Now I think I *have* to get the DVD, just to see that.

[ladystarblade.livejournal.com]

*lifts eyebrow* My roommate got the DVD, but I haven't seen it yet. Must investigate...thanks for the heads-up.

[mneme]

Is it? It seems to me that it's the same story as that of Macha -- except that they've moved the positions around a bit.

Re Problematic tales. Well, there's Cinderella, of course -- the story of how a woman, with help from a relative and pretty much nothing on her side aside from beauty, marries her way out of poverty. Add gratuitous torture of relatives to taste. Similar story for Snow White, really, except that you have to add in extra stupidity on the ingenue's part, a noble birth to make it less subversive, even more cruelty-to-relatives, and Jews, er, I mean dwarves. (At least Snow White has a single heroic character, by which I mean the woodcutter).

I suspect one reason for the enduring popularity of those two (which isn't to say that less problematic tales, like Beauty and the Beast, East of the Sun, West of the Moon, the Goose Girl, and even Repunzel...or any of the cautionary tales, which I admit liking less well, don't have their converts and retellings) is that they're -so- problematic that rather than suggest reinvention, they demand it. Though Cinderella is pretty hard to turn into something reasonable even with re-invention, unless you switch protagonists, as Elizabeth Scarbrough did with her _Godmother_ series.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Cinderella was always the one that bothered me the most. I loved the story, but from the outlook of an abused child, her life struck home to much. The idea that her step sisters all put themselves through physical torture to try to have what was hers by rights, in the end maiming themselves, was a bit of a vindictive joy to the little girl in me.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

All I can say is that the Grimm's must have some REAL issues with their Mother.

[calliopeva.livejournal.com]

I have always enjoyed the Grimm fairy tales in their "original" state, as opposed to the "prettified" versions usually done by Disney or others. I don't really like the Perrault versions of fairy tales- he was writing for the French court and was one of the first to try and re-write things to try not to shock his audience.
HCA was writing in a style typical for his time-heavily moralistic stories for children done in the Victorian time period. All stories for children had to teach morals, so the writers of the time would find a way to do so at the end, even if it didn't really go along with the rest of the story. George Macdonald did this a lot- great stories but in the end he usually gratuitously kills off everyone just to make a pious point. I usually don't like Disney versions of classic fairy tales, but I did like the Little Mermaid because I hated the original ending. After going through all that suffering the heroine is supposed to get the prince, not die!

Beauty and the Beast

[capplor.livejournal.com]

A classic case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Re: Beauty and the Beast

[ladystarblade.livejournal.com]

*blink* I never thought of it that way...but I'll be darned if you don't have a point! :-)

Although, after reading other comments

[capplor.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I've known too many women of whom it might be said, "She's trying to cast herself as Cinderella", appearing to seek out the worst situations, so that she may be rescued by a Prince Charming.

But R&H's version is so NEAT, in all its incarnations -- Leslie Anne Warren, Brandy, Julie Andrews.

[batyatoon]

So when I took a course on fairytales and folklore in college, I was one of the few in the class who already knew that in the oldest known version of Little Red Riding Hood, the wolf eats her and there is no rescuing woodcutter.

I'm convinced that the current popular ending, with the rescuing woodcutter, was made up on the spur of the moment by a harried parent in a dialogue going something like this:

"...The wolf ate her?"

"Yup."

"But but but --" *lipwobble* *huge eyes slowly filling with tears*

"And you see, that teaches us that --"

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH."

"-- you see, because the little girl didn't --"

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH."

"-- okay, yeah, I see you get it. Now go to sle--"

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH."

Fifteen minutes later: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH."

"-- okay! Okay, she didn't die! Uh ... there was, right, okay, there was a woodcutter passing by at just that moment..."

"WAAAA--" *snif* "Wuh?"

"Yes! A woodcutter. And he heard the wolf growling, and he burst in and cut off the wolf's head with his axe and saved the little girl just in time."

*snif* *snif* *lipwobble* "'nd the grandmother?"

"...right. Um. Uh, the woodcutter chopped the wolf open with his axe and rescued the grandmother from inside his stomach. And so both the little girl and the grandmother were perfectly safe and all right and will you please go to sleep now?"

*snif* "'kay."




Or something like that.

[mneme]

*giggle*

Yeah.

Like that.

Actually, kinda like kids are upset when people take out the ending of the Three Little Pigs.

[ladysoapmaker.livejournal.com]

My biggest problem with the stories is the depiction of the stepmother. She is invarably an evil person who is greedy and doesn't care for anyone but herself.

As a stepmother myself I don't think it's fair! (yeah I know life isn't fair). I'm not evil and I don't just think about myself. THough I'm sure my step-son thinks that when I'm getting on him about his homework and household chores.

I have an copy of the original stories and I've read most of them. No evil stepfathers. If the mother is good she's too poor to do anything or dead. Even the male characters are stilted and one-sided in most of the stories. The handsome prince who carries the girl off into the sunset. THough I must admit I will selectively read some stories to my kids and the more gruesome (or vindictive endings) my kids like the best. I don't know what that says about my kids but...

I've read some retelling of the classic fairy tales recently where the heroine isn't passively waiting for fate to solve her problems and the hero doesn't always do the right thing. I must admit Misty Lackey's latest books set in Edwardian England and the Fairytale series have been interesting. Beauty by SHeri Tepper definitely was a strong heroine. and isn't all about evil step mothers

[tomreedtoon.livejournal.com]

First of all, I know that in the 1950's someone rewrote some nursery rhymes to make them more (what we would call today) politically correct. So the "three KIND mice" went to the farmer's wife, who "cut them some cheese with a carving knife."

There's always people who wanted to soften the original fairy tales.

That being said, I'm not terribly happy with "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory." Even the original movie version had Willy Wonka as...well, a sadist and child-abuser. And the Oompa-Loompas were chanting his moral lessons, long after learning them would have done any good for the people involved. Like a domme saying, "You didn't call me mistress! You should have known you had to do that! Here's a hot soldering iron in your eye!"

A perfect story for a child suffering abuse; don't cause trouble and maybe someday Daddy will stop beating you and will love you.

If Roald Dahl were living today in the State of Florida, I get the feeling I'd see him on a newscast being taken away with a lot of deputies surrounding him, to prevent the bereaved parents from lynching him before the trial and inevitable execution. And the news cameras panning his back yard where the bodies were buried.

And before you ask, yes, his story makes me believe he WAS that bad.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the books since I was a child (my copies were destroyed when the basement flooded) and my memory isn't that clear, but I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. My impression of Willy Wonka was not of a sadist; when he's mean to Charlie (the "You've broken the Rules" bit) it was a necessary test of Charlie's character which was painful to Willy.

As to the aspersions you cast on Dahl, if authors aren't allowed to have any character do anything the least bit objectionable without being condemned as if they'd done it themselves, books are going to be a complete waste of time.

[tomreedtoon.livejournal.com]

I'm referring to Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. What are these books of which you speak? No one reads any more! You can forget the Johnny Depp version of Willy Wonka (or the "Gay Willy Wonka" as the kids in the neighborhood called him) - I don't want to get into Wonka as a disciple of Michael Jackson.

And the idea of frightening and beating up children to "test their character" is something I would expect of, say, Ed Gein...or a fictional character like The Joker. (You HAVE seen "Batman Beyond: The Return of The Joker," right? His treatment of the Tim Drake Robin is perfectly in line with the Willy Wonka School of Beating the Crap Out Of Kids For Their Own Good.)

And as for your statement, when a person performs an immoral act - especially in a book for children, when the victims are children - there has to be some kind of moral redress. There wasn't. Were I a judge, I would have thrown Wonka into prison for fifteen years, to occupy a cell with Bubba - well, in Britain, I suppose it'd have to be Ronnie - where his outfit and attitude would make sure that HE was the one who would be forced to wear the dress.

But no, Wonka gets appreciated for his act of child abuse. Freddy "Wonka" Krueger wins. Makes me want to smack that purple top hat off his head and spray him with a man's cologne for a change.

[batyatoon]

If you're referring to the movie, you've got startlingly little basis on which to condemn Dahl. Read the book first, please?

Also, even in the film, Wonka doesn't actually do anything to the kids. He just fails to protect them from the consequences of their own actions, every one of which he warns them against taking.

You could get him on child endangerment, hell yeah, but you'd be hard put to it to get him on abuse. And endangering children to test their character is something fictional adult good guys do all the time. Adult good guys like, f'rinstance, Batman.

[tomreedtoon.livejournal.com]

Okay. On the one hand we have young kids who want to become crimefighters deliberately choosing to be trained by dangerous methods. And they know that The Batman is nobody's friend, especially not the friend of kids.

On the other we have kids expecting a nice factory tour, damn near killed by a guy who hates them and probably the whole human race. (How many kids died from diabetes and heart attacks from eating all those crappy Wonka bars to find those golden tickets, any way?) You seem to have mistaken Batman for the Frank Miller version of The Joker - another guy who poisoned a lot of kids with a sugary product.

And I tell you again, in caps, so maybe you'll get it this time, PRINT IS DEAD. The original Wonka books don't matter. What matters is that Dahl approved of the film with this top-hatted Ed Gein. Those books were never read by one hundreth of the kids who went to see "The Rocky Horror Picture Show for Kids," as one author called the film. The film is the only text that matters, because that's the only one people know about.

If you want to blame something for that situation, blame the incompetents who call themselves "America's finest teachers" for the inability of this generation to read, as well as their indifference to text. But don't blame me. I'm just introducing you to what's happening in reality.

[batyatoon]

And I tell you again, in caps, so maybe you'll get it this time, PRINT IS DEAD.

I do hope you appreciate the irony of telling me this in a text-based format.

The original Wonka books don't matter.... The film is the only text that matters, because that's the only one people know about.

That, of course, depends entirely on what you mean by "matters." Popularity is an important gauge for story power, of course, but hardly the only one.

And I've seen this generation's indifference to text firsthand, in the form of long long long lines to buy the next Harry Potter book -- much longer than the lines to see the next movie. I was working in a school when the third Potter movie came out, and polled the kids who'd seen it; every one of them had read the book first (multiple times!), and every one of them said the book was better.

Sorry to crush your cynicism, but print's alive and well.

[dr-zrfq.livejournal.com]

Okay. Number One: Dahl *wrote the script for the Gene Wilder movie*, as well as the book on which it is based. So Dahl does bear some responsibility for the movie itself. That said, Number Two: Wilder's W.W. is much scarier than the character in the novel, IMO. And nastier too: the "You've broken the Rules" bit is *NOT* in the novel. At all. (Having read the book a year or two before the movie came out, I was shocked when we got to that scene in the movie.) I don't really know why Dahl remade the movie Wonka into a borderline nutcase, when the guy in the book came across as "eccentric but somewhat lovable" to me.

[batyatoon]

I was utterly shocked when that bit came up in the movie. And also by the earlier bit that leads into it, where Charlie and his grandpa taste the Fizzy Lifting Drinks. Because the whole point in the book is that Charlie doesn't break the Rules, and he's the only kid who doesn't.

It's a bit of a shock to me now to hear that Dahl wrote the script for the Gene Wilder movie. I wasn't even sure how it made sense that he'd approved it.

[dr-zrfq.livejournal.com]

OK, imdb.com doesn't give a screenplay credit for the movie -- but the poster (which a non-LJ friend has) says "Screenplay by Roald Dahl" followed by "Based On His Book..." What struck me about the movie, even at a young age, was how well the movie followed the novel -- about as well as a movie musical could, really -- *except* for those two scenes! And you're absolutely right about the point of the novel.

[hanabishirecca.livejournal.com]

Origin of the Munka
by Joshua Keezer (hanabishirecca)

There was once a pillywiggin who lived in a patch of cowslips. Each day she would collect up all of the morning dew and bring it to one large cowslip. Then, she would wait until the sunlight absorbed all of the dew back into the air. Only then would the pillywiggin be free to spend the rest of the day by the river or talking with the honeybees.

One morning a brownie watched as she gathered the dew. “What are you doing?” she asked.

“I'm gathering all of the dew just as the king asked of me,” the pillywiggin said. “Magic gathers in the morning dew and if I don't collect it, it won't return to the sunlight.”

The brownie watched until the pillywiggin had finished returning all of the dew to the sunlight. The brownie left and did not return until the following day.

“May I have some dew?” asked the brownie. The pillywiggin paid her no mind. She continued to collect the dew but the brownie tried to scoop up some of the dew from the large cowslip.

“You must not touch the dew,” insisted the pillywiggin. “It cannot be touched by anyone but me or I might lose a drop and the magic would not be returned.”

That night the brownie found the pillywiggin and offered her a cup of wine. The pillywiggin drank the wine and drifted off into deep sleep. She awoke in the morning and went to the cowslips. The brownie was there and had just snatched a drop of dew before the pillywiggin chased her off.

The brownie did not return again. After many months had passed, the pillywiggin heard that the brownie had a strange set of twins. Winter had set upon the land and there was no morning dew to collect. The pillywiggin journeyed to find the brownie and meet her two sons. When she met the twins, she knew immediately they were created by the magic from the dew.

“I must tell the king,” the pillywiggin said. She left and met the king of the fae. When he heard what the brownie had done, the king was red with fury. He summoned for the brownie and the twins. When they arrived, the king asked the brownie if what the pillywiggin had said was true. The brownie lied and said she had woke one morning to discover she had twins. The king knew she was lying and ordered her to be killed.

The king asked the twins if their mother had told them about the dew. The twins were both cowards and knew the king would have them killed if they lied. So they quickly told the truth about their mother stealing the dew drop. The king thought the twins were honest and decided to reward them. “Hence forth, you shall be known as the munka. Both of you go preform a great deed and I will reward you both with a blessing.”

The munka twins were both lazy. One of the twins found a steep cliff with a eagle nest on it. He climbed the cliff and stole an egg. The other twin traveled into the wilderness and caught two bats as they slept.

When the king saw the munka twins return with an eagle egg and two bats, he became furious. “What great deed is this?” he asked.
The first twin presented the king with an eagle egg, “I have brought you an eagle egg from high upon the cliff side. It is the first time ever such a feat has been preformed.”

The second twin held the two bats for the king to take, “I have brought you two bats from deep within the forest. It is the first time ever such a feat has been preformed.”

The king saw the twins for the fools they were. He took the two bats and the eagle egg and said to the twins, “I shall bestow a blessing as promised for such feats. Hence forth, all munka shall be known for completing deeds that no other has performed. Only when a munka has completed his great dead, may he sip from the magic of the dew drop.

And from that point, the pillywiggin was given the duty to protect the magic of the dew drop until a munka came along having completed his great deed. If the pillywiggin knew the munka spoke the truth, she brought the munka a drop of dew for him to drink. And the munka to this day, strive to find any deed undone to be the first to complete it. The great storytellers can fill you with lots of tales of silly deeds performed by the munka all for a drop of dew.

Please do not reproduce without permission

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

Please do not reproduce without permission

Sound advice for the Red States!

[unclelumpy.livejournal.com]

Any of the ones featuring "The Big Bad Wolf".

Hey... I like wolves... Okay?

[fuuberry.livejournal.com]

"The Robber Bridegroom" is a story that always bewildered me. There was no lesson, or anything similar.. Except, I guess, "Don't eat people, and if you do eat people, don't plan to eat the woman you're engaged to and then forget about why she didn't show up when you were expecting her"

"Clever Hans" always made me giggle entirely too much.

By the by, random, but I'm curious, does *anyone* remember the show from the late 80's, "Grimm Tales" with Rik Mayall?

[anansi133.livejournal.com]

My least favorite fairy tale is the one about the international communist conspiracy, doing whatever it can to subvert our god-given rights to capitalism and homophobia.

[anansi133.livejournal.com]

Oh, and a close runner up is the Babar the Elephant books. The illustrations always creeped me out, like a murky grey nightmare.

[kenalepha.livejournal.com]

I spent about 2 1/2 years in Hanau Germany and even spent one memorable New Years Night on the statue of Fritz and Wilhelm Grimm in the Frihaltsplatz. Nothing like being blitzed to the gills on German beer and throwing half sticks (firecrackers bought from an enterprizing Turk in a Trinkhalle) from the lap of whichever one is sitting. Did not in fact remember if the two changed places during the night (that was the rumor we were supposd to be confirming) but as I look back on it now, I wonder why the Politzai did not come and arrest us.

I agree that their tales were dark and forboding things and I have wondered if the word grim was a corruption of their last name. I have also heard that Little Red Riding Hood was an allegory of the grandmother being a Werewolf. Also that one of the others was a Vampire story (kissing the blood from the rose picked fingers was the description but I don't remember which story that was from)

[kenalepha.livejournal.com]

Sorry- Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm.

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

Of course it's the wrong guy. Jake was the Thing's uncle.

[krings-keep.livejournal.com]

--- For me, trying to describe the plot of Rumplestiltskin is like trying to describe the plot of The Rocky Horror Show. It makes absolutely no frickin' sense at all. ---

It makes sense if you translate it into the original meanings..

Spinning straw into gold is SILLY!

Spinning flax strick (the interior of the flax plant) - (the plant itself *looks* like straw) into thread as fine as modern sewing thread (which was worth it's weight in gold)

Makes MUCH more sense..

Of course the original Rupunzel had Rupunzel complaining that her clothes were getting too tight after all of those visits from the Prince. They were getting tight because she was pregnant!

Katheryne

[vettecat.livejournal.com]

A lot of the Andersons are just creepy... Little Mermaid, Little Match Girl, The Red Shoes (brrr)...

[mstrhypno.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the related, but not really fairy tale-ish Hunchback of Notre Dame and the extreme re-write that it got at the hands of several groups, Disney being probably the most egregious!

Every time I see one of these re-written things on film or dvd, whether from the House of Mouse or other companies, all I can do is sit back and wonder at how traumatized some people will be when (and if) they ever see or read the original story.

Grimm Brothers seemed to have a thing for Matri- and Patricide, mutilation, torture, abuse, starvation and denial of rights.

Anderson was just plain sadistic.

But we have to remember that, with the Grimms, at least, they were collecting local folk and fairy tales, not necessarily writing them as original works, themselves.

Which speaks to a cultural climate that had to be in place during that period, that scares the living hell out of me!

Of course, if you look at many of Disney's films, especially his animated features, and even some of his nature studies (like the one about the squirrel), a LOT of them START with the Mother (primarily) or Father, or BOTH parents of the main character getting killed off in the first twenty minutes...! It is damn-near formulaic in many of these stories, from Grimm to Anderson to Disney.

My question would be - WHY is that seemingly so necessary?