filkertom | Trolls Make My Teeth Ache

I seem to have a troll. Loads of fun, and nearly completely wrong on everything except the fact that I used to have a really messy car, which was kinda common knowledge so it's not exactly the big reveal in Act Three of CSI: Fandom.

Word to the troll, whose IP is noted and logged: Don't bother. I am not a tech whiz, and don't pretend to be one. I know lots of real tech whizzes, and they are the people I go to when I have serious problems. But I'm not clueless either.

If you've got a genuine problem with me about something, the e-mail is filkertom at yahoo dot com. I'll listen. If I just offend you on general principles, though, sorry, but I don't feel like explaining private details of my life just to deflect an amateur-night Don Rickles. If you just want to insult me from behind a fake name, both of us have better things to do.

So, is anybody else holding some kinda grudge I should know about? Have I ticked you off? Something unresolved? I'm very serious here. Apart from the Bush Administration and their enablers, I don't need or want enemies. Certainly not in fandom, not among people whom I consider friends. If you'd rather take it to e-mail, that's good too.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

Conservatives and Christians often aren't tolerated in fandom because they tend to advocate laws that would result in many fans being at least ostracized by society and at most thrown in prison.

No Tom, they don't. Just the ones who get the press do.

If all Christians actually followed Jesus' teachings I suspect you'd have no problem with the religion. Any Good Christian I know looks at GodHatesFags.com like a Democrat looks at Lyndon Larouche (e.g. "He's not with us").

From:

nimitzbrood.livejournal.com

If all Christians actually followed Jesus' teachings I suspect you'd have no problem with the religion. Any Good Christian I know looks at GodHatesFags.com like a Democrat looks at Lyndon Larouche (e.g. "He's not with us").

Dammit! Now there's tea on my keyboard! ;-)

FWIW I've heard many people say the above and I agree wholeheartedly. In fact I know quite a few Christians who I would say fit that bill. The problem is separating out the good from the bad. But isn't that often the problem anyway?

From:

filkertom.livejournal.com

I find it's really easy to separate the good from the bad: The bad are the ones who try to legislate their religion onto people who don't want it. That's what it pretty much comes down to. And the worst part is, some of those bozos will at one point or another invoke the Doctrine of Free Will....

From:

nimitzbrood.livejournal.com

Y'know. I come at it from this angle:

We all have a faith. (In something - in ourselves if nothing else.) What that faith is is internal to ourselves.

The moment you attempt to force it on someone else it's no longer a faith but dogma. You can invite someone to share your faith but that requires an internal change in them and is not something you're responsible for.

I don't think I can explain it any simpler than that...

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

Yeah, but your comment I quoted had you lumping them all in together.

To wit:

Conservatives and Christians often aren't tolerated in fandom because they tend to advocate laws that would result in many fans being at least ostracized by society and at most thrown in prison

This type of statement is what gets people like us tabbed as "Intolerant Liberals". If someone made a statement that black people "tend to advocate things that...." based upon the statements of Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton, you'd be screaming "who the hell elected them as a leader?" and probably chalk up the person who expoused the view as a closet racist.

And the Good Christians think the same thing about you, for the exact same reasons.

I like you. I like your views. I just wish you were more careful with your brush.

From:

filkertom.livejournal.com

Ah-yup.

I already said I was sorry about that wording. And I've got a couple of close friends who will take me to task on it in long ugly phone calls. But, y'know something? I almost don't care.

You want to get me on my indelicate wording? Fine. You want to get me on my views? Fine. We can go up and down all day, but, Scruff... as you pointed out yourself, the only Conservatives and Christians we hear about are the loud ones who advocate this insane shit.

And... the people who tab us as "Intolerant Liberals" will do so whatever we say. It doesn't matter. They've got their minds made up as solidly as we do. It's like I feel about Hillary Clinton and Joes Biden and Lieberman -- quit trying to be Republican Lite. They've got actual Republicans they can vote for.

ALso, I have a problem with the structure of your example. If someone said something like that, I'd want to know who it was and what was the context. Especially if they were in elected office. (This week, that would be George Allen, R-VA.)

If people want to scream at me, "Who the hell elected you as a leader?" I'd say, "No one. My LJ, my voice, and I'm not trying to ramrod through anything that will affect you personally."

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

as you pointed out yourself, the only Conservatives and Christians we hear about are the loud ones who advocate this insane shit.

Yeah, but they see someone like you as the enemy and they say the say thing about you. You feed their fear much like they feed yours. Maybe they do it on purpose and jump on your indelicate wording as an example of what "liberals are doing", but to use your example, since I live in VA, I'll tell you what happened:

Sen. Allen called the guy tracking his campaign with the name his *campaign* workers had tagged him with. He likely heard it and really truly thought it was his real name and the backstory with it was likely. He can't admit this because then he would look REALLY STUPID...and the electorate is less forgiving of dumb than insensitive. Did you take that into the context?

You think they have an agenda. They think you have one. By both of you saying it, you squeeze out the ability for people without an agenda to refuse to tolerate the extremists on their own side of the aisle. I can't shut up the people who throw all Christians into the same vat of evil for fear the evil Christians will win, and the Good Christians can't shut the evil Christians because, you gotta admit, people who talk like that make people wonder if the evil Christians have a point about them being endangered if they dont act like that.

I agree with you on that Dems need to be Dems. Dems dont win by being Republicans. I don't want Hillary. I dont want Joe. But I REALLY don't want HOWARD DEAN.

And by the same token, youre NEVER going to see the old John McCain again. Arnold wouldn't win the nomination. They can't nominate a sane guy because of their twittage. Wouldn't you like to see a Pro-Choice Republican? I guarantee you won't as long as People like Michael Moore galvanize the opposition. The GOP is at least smart enough not to give Rev. Robertson their soap box anymore.

From:

markbernstein.livejournal.com

But I REALLY don't want HOWARD DEAN.

OK, you've got my attention and curiosity. Why? And I'll admit up front that I campaigned for Dean in the 2004 primaries, and think that a lot of the conventional wisdom about him is false. Nonetheless, I'm genuinely interested in alternative viewpoints. Can you give me the specific basis for your dislike?

From:

filkertom.livejournal.com

Sheesh.

Yeah, Scruff, I'm the enemy. I honest to Cthulhu am. I want to let people live the way they want to live, do what they want, so long as no one gets hurt. And that fuckin' kills some of the moralizing shitheads in this country. The idea that people won't bow their heads to their weak, pathetic little god, who seems to need an awful lot of help for being all-powerful 'n' stuff, just galls them to the gills.

That's why we have the wording we do in the First Amendment. That's why Jefferson wrote that letter to the Danbury Baptists. The US Constitution dictates a secular state, and in my advocacy of that I am indeed the enemy.

I'm not going to insult you with a whole bunch of other eyewitness accounts of the various Allen incidents. I will suggest that saying he'd overheard it, thought it was the guy's real name, and then found out later that it was a mistake might look slightly less stupid than he and his campaign changing their story several times over a period of two weeks.

Of course they have an agenda; they've publicized it, made a big deal out of it. Of course I have an agenda; I could spell it out in boring detail if you'd like, but Crowley said it best -- an it harm none, Do What Thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law. All fifteen words are necessary, because that "harm none" part is every bit as important as "Do What Thou Wilt", and that's the part that a lot of people seem to be missing.

A thing: Christians are in less danger than any group in America. Four out of five Americans count themselves as Christians; Christmas and Easter are national holidays, every Sunday tens of thousands of churches are full, and the "evil Christians", as you put it, are the ones trying to make everyone else play by their rules. And Bill O'Reilly's bogus "War On Christmas" is so ludicrous as to be laughable, except then I'd have to admit I found something BOR said amusing.

Curious -- what do you think is wrong with Dean?

McCain -- feh. Biden with worse excuses. I'm wondering if we ever saw "the old John McCain". And everybody who demonizes Michael Moore is terrified by him because he can codify information and galvanize public opinion in a way most others can't. But it does amuse me how much weight -- sorry -- they give to him in matters of policy he doesn't actually affect.

And Robertson just takes the soap box now and then, and I say, let him. Let the world see him. Let the GOP constantly be saddled with that vicious, delusional, hateful old man.

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

No Tom, youre not the enemy. That's my point and you keep missing it.

I just want you to quit acting in a way where the bad guys can make you out to BE an enemy. Fear is the MindKiller here.

A Real Conservative (NOT a Repoopican, but one deserving of his party's title) Alan Simpson pointed out to Bill Maher that there is NO WAY the Dems will win over people while making fun of them. You cannot badmouth someone's religion and get them to vote for you. Can't. Wont win. Sorry. Jump up and down all you want about how evil they are, but when you say their out to get us, the good ones will say, "No I'm not". Much like how White people who arent racists get annoyed when they hear things that register as all white people are.

So PLEASE for all that is holy, help the rest of us sane people try to get the other party's sane people to make a play for control. They can't do that while they are afraid of us. The fearmongers win then.

I agree, Allen is a shit. I wont vote for him. The backstory on him is damning. But this case was him being more stupid than anything else. And I loathe his campaign strategy (apologize out of one ass, blame the liberals out of the other). But how he stepped into it is stupidity story.

Joe Biden is a hell of a lot smarter than Dean. Dean, who made all those sweeping generalities about how the Republican Party "all looks alike, sounds alike, a White Christian Party"? Dude... no wonder you like the guy. In order to win an election, SOME PEOPLE IN the other party has to VOTE for you.

Michael Moore? Same problem. Unable to shut up about how evil the other guys are.

The guy I vote for is going to be someone I actually *like*. Someone who doesn't play to the fearful wing of his own party. He can be as liberal as all get out, but he isn't going to resort to those tactics.

And anyone who does IS NOT PART of the solution.

I want to Resurrect Paul Tsongas in the worst way.

From:

filkertom.livejournal.com

Sorry, m'friend, but... no.

No, for one big, big reason.

We've done nice and polite. It doesn't work.

This is a fuckin' knife fight for the very soul of America.

Honestly, if I'm that much trouble to the bad guys, if I'm that much of an enemy, they'll probably find a way to take me out. C'est la vie, literally. But they are the bad guys, and I'm perfectly willing to keep making noise about my side, because I'm doing it for the sake of helping people and restoring our Constitution and getting the bad parts of government the hell off our backs and making the good parts of government work better and I want it for everybody, even them.

I don't know if you've looked around. I think you think you have. The sane members of the Republican party are shouted down as readily as the members of the Democratic party. The neocons, the wingnuts, the psychos rule the airwaves, and it's only been the last several months that finally some voices of reason on both sides have been able to be heard... but nowhere near enough. And here's the part you don't seem to get.

The sane members of the Republican party aren't afraid of us.

The rank and file, who've been constantly lied to, so much so that we can count them as brainwashed... they're afraid of us.

And we're not going to be able to persuade them to join our side. We have to smash the alien controllers and unplug the Matrix and get the criminals the fuck out of government.

We've had lots and lots and lots of people tell us how we should "get along" with the Republican party. Well, news flash -- the party is determined to rule forever and destroy us. If you don't believe me, READ THE FUCKING NEWS FOR THE PAST SIX YEARS!

I go berserk whenever I read an editorial that highlights the latest BushCo atrocity, then finishes with something to the effect of, "We would hope that Mr. Bush would do the right thing and...". Why? In God's name, why do they hope that? He has never in his life shown any propensity to do the right thing -- why start now?

And Alan Simpson can kiss my ass. I am sick to fucking death of Republicans telling Democrats what they should do to win. You don't ask the guy you're fighting how to beat him.

So you go vote for a guy you like. I liked Tsongas too. Very good man. Very nice man. Got his ass kicked. They fight as dirty as they can. They fuck up voting a dozen ways, they smear, they lie, they cheat, they steal, they're evil.

And if me saying it out loud, if Michael Moore saying it out loud, if all of the many people who've gotten sick and tired of rampant evil being done in our names and in the name of our country makes us distasteful, TOO FUCKING BAD.

I AM the enemy, Scruff. I'm the enemy of all the people who have decided that their wealth and power are more important than the welfare of our country and our rights and our laws and the safety of the world.

I am their enemy.

We're the good guys, dammit, and we have to identify ourselves as the good guys. The ones who don't like our language about it don't like anything else about us, either. And if that's your big problem with it, Scruff... well, I don't pretend to know what the solution is, but you may not be part of it.

Are we done?

From:

cktraveler.livejournal.com

Wow.

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

The sane members of the Republican party aren't afraid of us.

The rank and file, who've been constantly lied to, so much so that we can count them as brainwashed... they're afraid of us.

I concur!

Just tell me this and we'll be done.

My mother-in-law recently voted for the ban-gay-marriage amendment in her state because she's under the mistaken impression that her church would be forced to perform gay marriages if they became legal.

She's not brainwashed. She's not evil. She's just afraid. She thinks that's what people like Michael Moore want.

Tell me how I convince *her* that that she has nothing to fear from people like you?

From:

filkertom.livejournal.com

That, I wish I could do. In a lot of ways, I and people like me are trying to up-end everything they've ever known. And a lot of people thing, for instance, all that gay stuff is unnatural.

The best takedown of that specific issue I can think of is by Mark Fiore (http://www.markfiore.com/animation/agenda.html).

You might also want to tell her that no one is going to make her church do anything. Marriage within the church is and shall continue to be the church's business. (Yeah, there are always going to be die-hards who want to get that in there as well. I consider that going too far, not because I disagree with it but because that would be breaching church-state separation the other way. Getting civil unions, with recognition of the same rights and advantages afforded married couples, is the goal.)

Un-demonizing the ACLU would be good. Has she ever seen The American President? The speech Michael Douglas gives at the end is as good a quick citizenship guide as you'll find in the mainstream. Dave is less demanding, and therefore might be an even better tool.

Generally... it comes down to liberal progressives wanting to make sure that people have legal control over their own lives. We want to read what we want, think what we want, love who we want, worship (or not worship) as we want, have the right to make our own decisions regarding health care, without hurting anyone else or interfering with anyone else and without the government or anyone else telling us we can't because of someone else's religion.

Anything anyone can add to that would be appreciated. :)

From:

From:

hitchkitty.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-08-30 08:56 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

avt-tor.livejournal.com

I gave money to Webb in the primary because he had the better chance of beating Allen in the election. Now Webb has gone from twenty points behind to two points ahead. :)

From:

hitchkitty.livejournal.com

If someone made a statement that black people "tend to advocate things that...."

Because, of course, race and religion are completely interchangeable. One can, at any moment, up and change one's race; failing that, one is born into a religion and thereafter locked into it.

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

Wow, missing my point AND twisting my words...and in just two sentences. That takes some serious talent.

Any race or religion can have a message carried in its name by unelected "leaders" and cause undue influence in other people's opinion of it.

That was my point. We clear on what I said now?

Only in this regard do I say race and religion are interchangeable. If I wish to say it in any other regard, I'll be sure to do it myself thankyouverymuch.

From:

hitchkitty.livejournal.com

Races do not have official platforms.

Religions do.

Thus it is possible to have some person in authority who, officially or not, really does represent a religion's position.

You need to work on your analogies.

From:

scruffycritter.livejournal.com

My anologies are fine.

They demonstrate one point where race and religion are similar. You are pointing out the other places where they are not (and not relevant to the point I make. But just to make it clear since you seem to think I am unaware of it, Religions and Races are different things. Who knew?)

I make one small point, and your rebuttal is the point doesn't work in the larger context where I make no bones about it.

Seriously, I love how you stretch my analogies out of shape and then claim I'm the one who needs to work on them.

Talent. You've got some Real Serious Talent there. Ann Coulter's got nuthing on you.

From:

hitchkitty.livejournal.com

Demonstrating how an ill-conceived analogy breaks down in the fact of the slightest scrutiny is a talent?

Wow. I should pack my bags for the 30th Century and try out for the Legion of Super Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Super_Heroes).

Ann Coulter's got nuthing on you.

I'm going to do something now that you've already accused me of: I'm going to deliberately misunderstand you.

Wow, you're right. She doesn't. She lacks the ability to reason coherently.

From:

filkertom.livejournal.com

You're right, and you're right. Honestly, if Bush wasn't such an obvious evil fuckup, if he actually did some of the things he's said he was going to and didn't feel the need to screw up the Middle East, I wouldn't be anywhere near as mad at him as I am. When he was elected, I envisioned a new golden age of political humor, figured we'd have a disgruntling but not too damaging four years and that would be that. Who knew?